So for the longest time I have hated feminists (specifically for the logical inconsistencies and anti-male attitudes). But I do think they have one thing right, this idea of “rape culture” (though I think it is a derivative of “mob mentality”)…
The Brenda Tracy story, the Steubenville case, Mike Riley, Joe Pa, now this in Rolling Stone (“You’re still upset about that?” Andy asked one Friday night when Jackie was crying…sounds much like Mike Riley’s comment), and the hundreds of other cases that occur daily that we never hear about. Doesn’t seem to matter if the victims or male or female, really. The culture of rape is the same: the victim is to blame, victim is a liar, victim is a slut, society doesn’t understand the mental trauma because it didn’t happen to them, we don’t want to ruin the lives of guys with potential over some silly girl, or some variant of these.
Take this genius post from EugeneBeaver in the last rape thread (because apparently we need two rape threads here to get the point across that you should never rape someone?):
You’re trying to compare something that happened in 1998 and a coaching trying to build a program. To a guy in 2007 ( I think when Coye got removed) who has his program established. Furthermore things are vastly different in 1998 vs 2007 and now.
You’re reaching and you know it!
How you think and act now is different then what you would have done 16 years ago and its different from how you will act/think in 16 years later.
Do you honestly think for one second if the same thing happened today (prior to this article) that Riley would not have done something more then a 1 game suspension?
And my response:
So the rules are that if you’re building a program, gang rape is okay. If the program is established, gang rape isn’t okay. Good one, dude! Keep that hamster wheel turning.
Seriously, what kind of idiot (sub 20 IQ) argument is that?
This “Yes means Yes” law here in California is atrocious. If it passes, it will penalizes all college attending citizens, even the innocent, because of a few subhuman retards. It is especially damning to males as they are guilty from the start and have to prove innocence. This is never acceptable. But it begins to look acceptable due to the attitude toward rape. That is, one can suddenly make this [unconstitutional] argument look reasonable: if people can’t stop rationalizing rape, then the State is left with little choice but to stop the sex. Both are equally disgusting. People need to grow the fuck up, and the adults (e.g. coaches at Steubenville, Mike Riley, Joe Pa) who either encourage the behavior or turn a blind eye should not be acquitted. Mike Riley is a guilty man. Good luck both defending that statement and appearing rational/sane.
What’s Riley guilty of exactly? Honest question. I missed your last conversation on the topic
Turning a blind eye to a crime.
A player admitted to rape in a police report and he gave the kid a 1 game suspension. 3 other players were known to be involved in some capacity though they didn’t self-implicate like the one player, but they did implicate one another. We basically know (a) one guy definitely committed rape and (b) the three other guys were there and involved in some way, at best covering it up and not stopping the one guy who was committing rape.
This is all in the police report, which Riley could have read if he had questions or wanted facts.
Riley gives them all 1 game suspensions. Canzano breaks the story, and Riley’s response is to have that rape victim come speak to the football team. He also had some bizarre quotes. Go read the article; it is fascinating stuff. Changed my “nice guy, average coach” perception of Riley completely.
Ok, just wasnt sure if he committed an actual crime or if his inaction should be considered “criminal”
Turning a blind eye to a crime isn’t necessarily a crime, though it can be. Again, the specific State and the details would determine that.
Here is some information on it:
http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/accessory-to-a-felony.html
http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charges/failure-to-report-a-crime.html
Depending on what he knew and then how he acted (e.g. if he covered something up he is guilty of an actual crime), he could be guilty of some of these. “An accessory after the fact is someone who shelters, relieves, or assists a felon after a crime has already been committed”. Did he do any of this? Who knows. That would come out in a trial. You have to think he had access to the police report, read it, and saw Carlyle self-implicate. Right? If not WTF.
I guess the only valid argument could be Riley didn’t read the police report. That seems implausible to me. Canzano should have asked that since it’s the most important question. Since he loves Riley I doubt he’d ask that if he had even thought of it, and the odds he ever follows up and ask that are zero.
Turning a blind eye to rape is a crime in the court of public opinion, though. That is what I am talking about in the original post since there weren’t any charges filed in this case.
To be fair, only two were actually on the team. And they were the lesser cretins, if such an existence is to be had.
The gun charge for Francies was a far far lesser crime than being a party to rape, if that’s the least the two did. So the disconnect and outrage is real and genuine.
I think (I hope) what EugeneBeaver was trying to say is that Riley was a newbie head man dealing with this 16 years ago. I happen to think this is a poor argument in defense of a man who led professional athletes and was an assistant under John Robinson. So that stance is pretty naive.
The other argument is that football culture was just a bunch of criminally abetting ass-holes 16 years ago but might not be now.
So… take from that what you will.
You consider Francies’ actions a crime? He had a registered firearm, which is completely legal. It’s a violation of team rules but not a crime. I think he may have had some weed, too, in which case that’s likely a crime (though I am not sure of Oregon’s laws on that).
it’s a violation of team rules serious enough to warrant dismissal from the team. Riley’s policy is no guns. Jameis Winston committed no crime when he jumped on a table and yelled “fuck her right in the pussy”. But, it was a violation of team rules (or university code of conduct). Now not serious enough to warrant dismissal though.I’m not even sure that the university code of conduct was invented back in 1998. I will however say this much. The behavior of these athletes is the fault of the douchebags who coddled them along just because they could run fast or throw or catch a ball. How pathetic is that? Rape is a serious crime and shouldn’t be in the code of conduct. Abiding by the law is a given imo.
That was a little tongue in cheek. Let’s say that Francies was lucky to be pulled over.
I also wonder about all those neat stories about our O-line bonding over a little duck hunting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a_qYZlgIS0
HE SHOT HIS CAT!!! THE FIEND!!!
“A player admitted to rape in a police report and he gave the kid a 1 game suspension”
Do you have a link/quote? I must have missed something (sincerely)
“The culture of rape is the same: the victim is to blame, victim is a liar, victim is a slut”
I don’t think that’s the case with most people these days, especially in “liberal” states. I constantly hear people *saying* it’s the case, but have trouble finding many people who actually conform to this. If anything, I see most people automatically leap to the “accused = GUILTY”/”no one would ever lie about rape” mentality.
Do you have a link/quote? I must have missed something
Carlyle said Tracy told him “No” repeatedly before and after the oral sex. Carlyle “heard her tell the other males ‘No’ when they requested sex acts also.”
Thanks. I went back and read that section again. I’d still want to see the full report and know what Riley had, but that’s really messed up.
and here’s an article catching up with Francies in 2008. You cannot compare these two. Also if i recall correctly, the gun was in the glove box of his car. Concealing a handgun without a license to do so is in fact a crime. How he skated is beyond me. Just like how the DA refused to press charges against at least Carlyle in 1998 is beyond me. The criminal justice system in this country is extremely fucked up to say the least
http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindbeaversbeat/2008/10/catching_up_with_coye_francies.html
Is a gun in a glovebox a crime in Oregon? Say he had it in a locked box? If so, yeah I don’t know how he got around it unless the search itself was illegal.
Here we go. http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/oregon.pdf
So it’s legal to have in a glove box if it’s not concealed or [if concealed] “not readily accessible” (defined as locked). I bet if it were in a locked container even of the glove box were open that would be fine, too.
my understanding from my concealed class is that if it’s out of sight, it’s concealed. UNLESS, it is locked in a box or safe suitable for transporting firearms. You can have a handgun in your car and even be loaded, but it has to be in plain sight. In a closed or locked glove box, well, closed is probably going to get you at least cited for attempting to conceal. A locked glove box? That’s probably at the officer’s discretion. But why chance it. Get a CHL and don’t worry about it is my motto. I got pulled over in Salem over the summer and had a loaded .357 magnum in the drivers side door where the officer couldn’t see it. He didn’t ask and I wasn’t gonna tell him about it. Nor am I obligated to do so.
“So it’s legal to have in a glove box if it’s not concealed”
How is that possible? Unless one drives around with the glove box constantly open?
Yeah I don’t know…I guess if the glove box is open as you said.
The law requires a gun in a car either be obvious, or if concealed (not visible) it be not readily accessible. If in a glove or center compartment, it has to be locked and key not in it. Police are understandibly nervous about such stuff.
I have a concealed carry permit.
My question is, why isnt ANYTHING illegal, not also a violation of team rules?
Anyone witnessing a rape and not calling the police should be kicked off in any case. Just simple morality.
What is Riley guilty of? Nothing unlawful. But hearing of players involved in any way in a rape, should be dealt with severely. So his morality is surely in question.
What I see is that he dealt more severely with questions that had no victim, like the gun charge. He needs to make a comprehensive statement stressing that he missed dealing properly with the rape thing. The nice guy image is great, but he could get some real backlash from women’s groups.
That’s sort of the thing. Even if a kid is kicked off the team, it’s not like the regents don’t have the power to reinstate him and fully honor his ship. In fact, they can guarantee his ship in compensation.
Of course, it’s all BS in one case and soft on crime in the other case… but the right thing to do is to suspend indefinitely.
If that would have happened down here, Altman wouldn’t look like the rape-lover he looks like now. But apparently Faber had to keep the players on double secret investigation… per a lie… er.. the cops… um… someone… okay… a lie.
Coye was required to carry a gun by the administration for his own safety when he attended San Jose St.!
Not sure if this was posted in another thread or not, but “cant recruit to Corvallis” theme takes a hit on with this class, way to go Skipper Casey!
http://www.oregonlive.com/beavers/index.ssf/2014/11/oregon_state_beavers_baseball_92.html
off this topic, but Friday night’s opponent Anal Roberts loses to Mizzou 78-64 after leading at halftime. I know nothing about them so defer to Jack.
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=400586873
OT: but how stoked is everyone for OSU men’s soccer tournament game tomorrow?
obviously no one
I’m liking it. I have been highly critical of Simmons for a couple years. I don’t know why his team has been doing better other than the players on the team are pretty damn good. But they’re not being used correctly.
Ugh! It’s so easy to explain football. Futbol… that’s another thing.
Let’s say I disagree wholly with Simmons on where his possession points should occur… if he has possession… and if he doesn’t he should press… mostly because his possession points are stupid and he won’t hold possession.
Yes, it takes talent. But again… a coach recruits first then coaches… making it all about the coach. Simmons was at the bottom of the barrel last year.
Kudos for not being so this year. I promise not to count the number of futbol teams in the NCAA and where we might stand. I’m always afraid the answer will be, “Oh… something like 40 or so.”
I am somewhat interested in NCAA tournament time although I haven’t followed the team during the year. I think (from reading the information on the Beavs’ website) Simmons has been there long enough to have had a better record. So many kids are playing soccer now, it would seem that there are a significant number of players to recruit.
I like soccer – although it appears to me to be semi-organized tag without the tag – because there aren’t all the time-outs and because it is a world game.
And although I find football uniforms too busy- shoes, gloves, helmets, socks, pants, tops, masks, numbers – I quite like the look of the Beavs’ men’s soccer outfits – understated elegance. Nike?
It is Nike. They had to lose all the garish designs they force on American football teams because soccer is an international market which holds much more present and potential market value. It’s going to be rare that you see a soccer team wearing grandma’s knitted christmas sweater (or a christmas tree) like you do in American football.
Funny you would mention that – in the alumni magazine and also on the main Oregonstate website there is this article: http://poweredbyorange.com/2014/10/02/darrin-crescenzi-and-erin-mintun-pdx-to-nyc/ in which is mentioned that (when she worked at Nike):” Erin was a color expert — helping figure out things like which color soccer fans in Italy might favor in coming year.”
I especially liked the article because it got away from the OSU podunk image that sometimes exists.
Yeah, having “Samsung” or “Fly Emirates” across your jersey is much better.
And honest.
Well jack since you seem interested. This year they had the freshman and player of the year in the conference. Pac 12 soccer is really really good, 4 teams were ranked in the top ten last week, they are also one of the few conferences that does not have a conference tourney, they have to play each team twice. This team beat two top 10 teams in back to back weekends, they could be dangerous in the tourney.
Those people in that Rolling Stone article…holy shit. Some of the more disturbing quotes for me were
“Grab its motherfucking leg,” she heard a voice say. And that’s when Jackie knew she was going to be raped.” IT?????
then there’s the friends…
“We have to get her to the hospital,” Randall said. Their other two friends, however, weren’t convinced. “Is that such a good idea?” she recalls Cindy asking. “Her reputation will be shot for the next four years.”
“She’s gonna be the girl who cried ‘rape,’ and we’ll never be allowed into any frat party again.”
“One of my roommates said, ‘Do you want to be responsible for something that’s gonna paint UVA in a bad light?’?”
“My friend just said, ‘You have to remember where your loyalty lies.'”
what the fuck is wrong with people…
We in the real world call it stupidity.
I refer everyone to Jonathan Gruber and how he was not wrong and he should never ever apologize for what he said… years ago… not that anyone with any faux outrage was paying attention… years ago.
But now there must be some Congressional hearings… presumably to see if the American public is so fucking stupid they believe what they are told and become outraged by… sorry… what was I talking about?
Stupidity is the least of their problems. Idiots can still be decent and these people have no empathy or humanity. That girl tells her friend while bleeding that she was assaulted and the only thing her friend can worry about is how it will mess up her ability to get into parties. I can’t wrap my head around what kind of person says that.
I didn’t say they were idiots. I said they were stupid. Intelligent people can be stupid too, especially when they’re selfish.
I’ll put it to you in a billiards analogy. Chess is more apropos, but billiards is more clear for the short story.
One player steps up to the table and has a pretty impossible shot to make. S/he runs through all the angles and forces it would take to make that shot. Then s/he calculates the risk of playing a safety. S/he decides to be aggressive and goes for the impossible shot, actually making it. But what that player did not calculate was how the dynamics of the next shot would affect his or her overall game. S/he made the play because s/he was, while being a superb billiards mind, was stupid in this one instance. S/he wanted more from the world than s/he was given, and s/he was blind to the effects her selfishness would actually have on him or her in the long term.
To top it off, the other player’s dynamics also changed… for the better. The table opened up, and s/he ran it because the first player was just stupid.
I agree the RS story is a little… um… more egregious than this. But people become stupid when they can’t see past their own short-term self interests, especially during times of unusually high stress. But what forms that stupidity is the long thought out process of what priorities an individual really has during times of no or low stress. That girl actually doesn’t know how to sympathize, which still begs the girl’s humanity. Her fall-back was her own short-term self interest. Previous to that incident, she had determined that she would eschew anything beyond her own life because she didn’t want to take the time to calculate how being an actual human in an actual society might come full circle and benefit her tenfold in the future.
And so it goes. Now she gets to be the stupid ass who didn’t want to help someone who needed medical attention and a friend… because she didn’t want her being a good citizen to take her hard-earned partying out of her pockets.
The “it” quote is really bad. If I’m someone like Truman Capote, I might go visit that person for a series of interviews… with a bodyguard.
I don’t know how much this changes Riley for me. There’s no debating he fucked that whole situation up. I would say he fucked it up beyond belief, but it’s division 1 college football, so that isn’t really true. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to feel that the guy’s nauseatingly naiive. I mean his teams chant hip hip hooray after they win a game and it’s not even supposed to be ironic. With that said I at least hope that the guy didn’t really understand what went on that night. It doesn’t mean he isn’t guilty, and it doesn’t mean he didn’t turn a blind eye. But I do think Riley’s whole deal isn’t an act and that when he says he learned from it he means it. I don’t mean to come across as defending him at all, maybe he’s a despicable but either way we all know not a single damn thing is gonna done in reaction to this article (which wasn’t even revealing news because this case had already been reported on) so the best we can hope for is that this whole incident was an exception and not a norm for Oregon State football under Riley. To me the real discussion that should be stemmed from this whole story is that there is without a doubt countless more cases similar to this one that we don’t hear about.
I agree. I jump all over Riley for what I perceive as poor coaching, but think his naive good guy image is in fact him. He can recover the situation, I think, by making apologies and stern statements now. Women’s rights have seen a huge change/evolution over time, and esp in the decades since legislation in the 60’s, etc. Its still evolving. Riley can position himself as part of that. But dont try to shrug it off, Mike. That could be fatal…
Maybe Riley was naive 16 years ago, but I’m not giving him a pass. I think Riley’s coaching philosophy and mannerisms harken back to another era…think Clair Bee’s Chip Hilton books….but he’s coached at the highest levels, he knows the trouble players can get into. I think his actions were shaped by believing what his players told him and the fact that no charges were filed. He took a calculated risk and in the end he made a big mistake and now that the victim has decided to tell her full story, it’s coming back to haunt Riley to some degree.
Exactly right, and to compound matters he’s making very dumb quotes.
It’s thursday now, let’s get onto the game discussion.
ASU was a team that OSU was built to beat. ASU relied heavily on three players on offense. Strong, Kelly and Foster. 24 of 31 carries were by Kelly and Foster. 17 of 22 passes were to Strong and Foster. Nelson had three pass breakups on Strong. The cold helped in that Kelly looked a bit uncomfortable throwing at times and the WRs sometimes couldn’t hold the ball when they were hit.
The defensive line played a good game. Wynn played a great game. He was consistently able to get under the pads of ASU and redirect the play. Because of this the LBs were able to flow freely and make tackles. Nelson was an obvious standout on his defense of Strong.
The offense played well enough. Took advantage of ASU’s aggressiveness at the right times. The offensive line stood out in particular. Lauina is going to be a good one. He was rarely beat. The only knock on him is his intensity on every play. If he followed the lead of Harlow and cranked up the nastiness, he’ll be all conference.
This week’s game will be a tough one. UW is a team built to beat OSU. They run a very fast up tempo offense. Ran 90 plays last week. They don’t have go to guys on offense that the defense can key on. They run the ball very well with a couple different guys. Their defense has at minimum a couple first rounders. The weakness in their defense is the secondary. It’s very young.
The keys to the game –
On offense – it’s all on the offensive line this game. UW plays a modified 3-4 defense. The NT is one of the best on the country. Shaq Thompson is what Steven Jackson would have been if he played LB. The offense needs to keep the clock moving to give the defense a rest. 3 and outs will be killer. Villamin will have a size mismatch all day. Tallest CB is 6 foot. I think almost all are first year starters. Some vertical shots will have to be taken but UW can get pressure with only a 3 man rush. So it’s on the oline to give Mannion some time. Kikaha is the best pass rusher in the conference with 16.5 sacks. Stanton is very susceptible to a speed rush. He’ll need to have a great game. Mannions two turnovers led to 10 points vs ASU.
On defense –
UW is a run first team. Miles is not a great passer. They ran the ball 60 times last week. Miles ran 15 times. Zone read concepts are the base of their offense. Slow the run down and make Miles pass more. There is no standout WR that they rely on. It’s all based on what the defense gives. Miles is not a great downfield thrower so clogging up the middle will be important. Make him throw long to the outside. Much of his passing yards come from YAC. The game plan will be similar to against Utah but hopefully with more success defending the run.
I can’t say with much confidence that the Beavs will win this game. UW is coming off a heartbreaking loss and OSU is riding high from an upset. The only thing that can keep the Beavs super focused this week is to remember the shellacking from last year and hope UW doesn’t think too highly of them. I really hope they win because I dislike UW a lot and the last two games at UW have been heartbreakers.
ASU was a team that OSU was built to beat.
What? Asu wins that game 9 out of 10 times. They were clearly sleepwalking and their coach said as much at halftime.
And if four big plays didnt happen, its a big OSU loss…
Those were big plays, but not fluke plays, and the Beavs’ win was earned.
Actually, the win wasnt so “earned”. Any big play is somewhat a fluke. Take a look at our third down conversion rate for that game. If the big plays hadnt happened, like just going for 10 yds instead of 60, our offense wasnt usually moving inexorably down the field. Mannion wasnt having a great day with pass accuracy.
So basically you’re saying “If the Beavs hadn’t scored those 4 touchdowns, they wouldn’t have won the game” ?
I guess I’d have to agree with you there.
Good write up. This game (as with any other Beaver game) comes down to who shows up and plays to their full capability. OL/DL play again will be huge, the defense did a much better job of finishing tackles last week and will need to to do the same this week (and every week). Riley can’t go away from the run this week, Beavs must run to set up the pass. When they do pass it should be a lot of play action with max protection on. The Beavs tackles cannot handle the UW pas rush one on one and will need help from tight ends and running backs.
This should be a very similar look to the Utah match up and is very winnable IF the Beavs play well.
Follow up o live article on Brenda Tracy:
http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/oregonian/john_canzano/index.ssf/2014/11/canzano_closing_the_loop_on_br.html#incart_river
Saw this advertisement on Facebook and thought it sort of fit with the topic.
http://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fteespring.com%2FLL_XLocalXXGirlX_OG%3FFB%3DPE&h=2AQFB-6in&enc=AZOCyJRoPaTiFnW9JTu95C4v6DXdlMWoNd-w-tyPRdXf60IUgXyQRKmGkgvuud3qyst6X3fduJ8_8QCD-z217bQqR-iGmqJ0V_LmIKZTglUQazlFwQkXiydVmiHsUmlmweaOux91x173NZ4tceorDD_J&s=1
I know….sorry…..not funny……and inappropriate….I’ll go away now….
I laughed
Dang, another school shooting? Florida State this time.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/20/us/fsu-incident/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
maybe we can use this as a recruiting tool? “We never have school shootings in little podunk Corvallis”
No school shootings, only school sheepings
Canzano’s wife ran a big story about the sexual assault on the news here in PDX tonight. The victim met with the nurse who was so kind to her and the cameras were there, both came off very articulate and their meeting was heartfelt. Riley was referenced and did not come off well (the nurse made some indirect comments about the indifference). Some discussion by the reporters about the 6 year limitation in Oregon and the states that have no limitations on this type of crime.
there was a “ask a rapist” thread on reddit a while back that pretty much detailed the mindset of a college rapist. obviously it’s horrifying
http://www.reddit.com/r/MuseumOfReddit/comments/1t1r2z/the_ask_a_rapist_thread/ce3gwz7
I wrote benton for the police report. They said there is a fee for it, and they wanted to know if i wanted corvallis or benton sheriffs report. anyone know which i should request? also, if the fee is high would anyone here be willing to chip in? i want to read this thing.
Riley spoke briefly on this topic on his weekly 1080thefan interview yesterday. He said something about the information that was available to him then, was different than what has been presented to him more recently. He didn’t go into specifics, but he made it sound like maybe he didn’t have the police report back then? If i can find the interview I’ll link it.
http://media.1080thefan.com/a/99359279/primetime-with-isaac-and-suke-11-20-14-hour-3.htm?
Interview starts around the 9 minute mark, and the rape part is around minute 24.
Saturday Oregonian has a front page bold headline regarding statute of limitations on rapes and how short it is in Oregonian.. Tracy case referenced again and Riley/OSU brought up.
Angry, you might be interested to know that the evidence was destroyed two years after the case and that guideline was apparently in compliance with the law. The evidence included condoms. The story may be on O-Live, but I couldn’t find it.
What Riley and his staff did was threaten other rape victims, cover up a brutal gang rape to protect his reputation, minimize a horrific crime; calling it a “mistake, and create an atmosphere were rape flourished and coaches called and persuaded(threatned)rape victims. Don’t equate when it happened, and pretended it’s a lesser crime because it happened sixteen years ago. None of you idiots suffered the way this poor woman did.
If you need any more proof, ask yourself what was Riley’s first reaction when these alligations came to light? He ran like the hypocritical coward he is! I’m pretty sure if something as awful and violent happened to any one of you, you’d want justice or at least someone to empathize and tell you that they care and you have value! The victim recived non of this, not only that the punks that did this to her have been allowed to live their lives with zero recrimination. They gang raped a young women, were arrested with evidence ensuring their guilt. But because of conflict of intreasts the only consequnces was a 1 game suspension. I use to admire Mike Riley, as much as anyone, but now I see him for what he is, I’m glad his hypocritical, fake punk ass is gone and I’m going to laugh my ass off when he gets what’s comming to him. You idiots should really know what your talking about before offering an opinion! But I guess critical thinking and ethics are to much to ask for in a message board. Tracy deserved better from everyone including us!