1. Joe Burton's new nickname is "The Keith Pankey of college basketball"
2. Joe Burton and Calvin Haynes shall, from this point forward, be dubbed "The Blues Brothers" due to the fact that every time both are in the game sad things happen.
3. Craig Robinson learned nothing versus Washington. I gave him too much credit. That game was coincidence and luck.
4. I can't believe I wasted an hour today analyzing and writing about this team. Shame on me!
5. Beavers cannot find the enthusiasm and focus needed to beat middle of the road teams.
6. The crowd was ready to erupt and believe in this team if they could just win back to back games, but instead they were silenced once again. How long before they stop attending?
7. Has a woman's head coach ever become the men's head coach in NCAA history? I've asked this three times now with no response. Anyone??
8. Big time souring of Craig Robinson by Angry (mainly for playing Haynes and Burton).
9. Joe Burton is going to kill someone with a pass before his career is over. Maybe I should dub him Joe "The Scalper" Burton.
10. Kill us all.
Oh, one more thing: have I mentioned how much I hate Haynes and Burton? Here's to both getting hit by a bus.
I'm ghost.
-Angry
I like Joe Burton as a person. As I mentioned in a blog posting last year, I got to meet him, and he’s a really nice guy — friendly, humble, down-to-earth. I also like some of the things he tries to do on the court (tries to get his teammates involved, tries to get rebounds, tries to play defense). However, trying is no longer enough. Fact is, Joe is a turnover machine. Bad passes. Stepping out of bounds. Loose ball fouls. The type of plays that can kill momentum, and often do.
As for Calvin Haynes, I’ve never met him, so I can’t say what he’s like as a person. However, I truly hate the way he plays basketball (as I’ve said repeatedly on this blog for the past two years — so I won’t repeat myself yet again on this sorry subject).
I’m with you all the way on this, Angry.
When Calvin Haynes stops playing, I’ll start watching OSU again. Since CH’s eligibility ends this season (finally!), looks like it’s next year for me. Looking forward to it….
I think it was after the Arizona game when they interviewed Burton. He seemed like a fantastic guy. If basketball was a game of personality, I’d want him on the court. Since it is a game of intelligence and skill, I want him on the bench. I have no problem with Joe Burton the man, just like Keith Pankey the man seemed like a fine human being.
Big miss, Pankey was a terrible person. That was why it was so easy for me to root against him.
It seems to me that each OSU victory comes down to coincidence and luck. It’s not because of the Beavers outstanding play, as much as it is the other teams playing like crap! During all of last season, summer, and early fall we all heard how Roberto Nelson was supposed to become a scoring machine who can’t miss. Where is that guy? Where is the shooting offense from this team? Are there any pure shooters on this team? Where is the improvement since the start of this season? OSU is one of the bottom feeders of the Pac-10, almost like OSU switched spots with uo from last year’s results. AHHH!!!!!!! DAMN IT!!!!!!!
yep
Angry mentioned in a comment on the other page that Haynes is 18th overall scoring. I bet that is simply based on the shear number of shoots he takes. His shooting percentage is prob 2nd worst, (worst is Wallace). He had double digit shots tonight, he took more than Collier but look at that dude’s production in the stat line tonight… Double-Double.
Devon Collier was awesome tonight again! He has tremendous upside and I love the way he plays, and how much he has improved every game!
We need bigs. Brandt is not shooting the ball… that is the only reason for him to be on the floor. Burton is not great but the ball moves better with him on the floor. Would love to see a +/- on this team. Wallace and Haynes are black holes. We need to have at least one of the younger guards or Burton on the floor at all times or the ball doesn’t move.
Refs also sucked. Basket interference on Collier when the ball was clearly out of the cylinder… oh well.
The team seems really slow in understanding what the opponent is trying to do defensively to stop them. They kept passing up open three’s like they were scared to take them, but that is what Wazzu was giving up.
WSU obviously noticed how the Beavs pounded it inside against the Huskies and they were not going to let them beat them in there if they could help it. I know the Beavers are a crappy shooting team, so it is a bit of a catch-22, but Brandt and Johnson have to take that top of key extended shot and make some of them. In the end, they may have still won the game, but decided to lay an egg at the free throw line.
What happened to Rhys Murphy? Why don’t McShane or Brandt shoot the ball? Why doesn’t Chris Brown, Daniel Deane, or Daniel Jones play more, or at all?
I think Murphy is injured, I didn’t notice him with the team. McShane probably shouldn’t shoot. Brandt passed up several open looks, I am not sure what is up with him but I seemed to remember him being a decent shooter. I’d like to see the rest of the bigs in a little more action.
I thought Murphy was injured. Wasn’t he injured last year too? Brandt looks like he hesitates too much, instead of trying to dominate on the inside.
Murphy has a wrist injury. He may be back before the end of the season. I doubt it though.
Brandt had a couple of huge 3’s in the pac-10 tourni against UW last year, anyone remember that? His first start and meaningful minutes. 3 of 4 from behind the arc in the first half, what happened to that guy? Not saying I like bigs shooting from behind the arc, but if its a threat its huge.
Those treys came from the angle. The offense has him setting up at the top of the key for now. He needs to be shuffled back to the horizontal step-out instead of trying to run the offense from the top. The threat of the post entry and a guard at the top is enough to give him that space.
yes I remember. It seems to me to be a mental issue. Brandt hesitates a lot… he needs to shoot when he is open… that is his skill that sets him apart. Without his shot he is just another Burton.
All of Rueck’s coaching experience at the college level has been with women. That’s his talent. He hasn’t worked with boys since he was an assistant coach at the high school level. Besides, we are stuck with CR for at least 2-1/2 more years no matter what, and even then I have zero confidence in DeCarolis’s ability to locate and hire a competent men’s basketball coach. His priorities are all out of whack each time the previous one fails, and as a result his track record is bupkis.
DeCarolis should be thinking about Eric Reveno pretty soon. There was an article in the Portland Tribune and Reveno already went after the Boise St. job, but did not get it.
Was Mark Few officially offered the UO job before Altman? He might be ready to return home.
Craig Robinson is legendary suck.
And Angry…I think I need to write you a really hilarious (yet I’m surely going to hell for making this joke) feelings I had about Joe Burton tonight.
Oh, by the way, saw “Glen Garry, Glen Ross” theatre at OSU. Michael Beaton was in it, as token bartender/bouncer. OSU Theatre is just as mediocre as the teams. No wonder Torian White went elsewhere.
OSU (P)athletics FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So, how many more games will OSU win this year? I’d say 2, and maybe 1 in the Pac-10 tournament at best. They’ll finish 9th in the Pac-10.
This year, OSU athletics are pathetic! Except for wrestling and gymnastics. We will see with baseball. We better beat the yucks, and go to Omaha while they stay home! Or else baseball wil be a failure too.
I’ve been reading you for awhile angry but never bothered to comment. Most of your stuff is insightful and I know the point of this website is to be critical. But I’d like to know why you think Burton is such a burden on the court. The guy IS a true sophomore and no more turnover prone than Cunningham, (I know, I know you don’t like him either.) It just seems you don’t like Burton because he has more glaring misgivings and visible things to hate, though I’d venture to say they are smaller than you think and much more fixable than say, Hayne’s toxicity when it comes to good team ball. Here’s some stats for you.
TO per game – 2.5 (tied for first with Haynes)
Assists per game- 2.3 (Highest on the team)
Assists to turnover ration – 0.92 (Third highest behind Cunningham and Starks. Starks is the only one with a +1 ratio)
RPG – 5.3 (second highest behind… Omari? WTF?)
PPG- 7.3 (fifth highest)
Not quite sure what his plus-minus is but that’s a dangerous stat due more to scheme, who’s hot and who’s on the court at the same time. I’d guess it’s pretty equal with most starting players though. A quick look at game totals, and from personal observation, shows the Beavs are best when he gets the ball in the low post and scores. In almost every victory this season he has been crucial either in the assist department or in scoring. (Arizona schools)
With the eye test, I guess that’s a matter of personal opinion. He does make some bad passes, but many aren’t really bad decisions, just too fast for the slow-thinking Omari or Calvin to handle. When Cunningham or Collier is on the receiving end of a pass, it rarely ends in a turnover as they are more athletic and forward thinking. He does need some work on the defensive end and obviously needs to spend about two hours a day shooting free throws. But imo, his defensive abilities lie more in man-to-man defense. He’s a bad zone defender but that’s also on the coach to put him in a position to succeed.
Burton is certainly a better fundamental post player and point-center than Schaftenaar (the least athletic Pac-10 starter I’ve ever seen) who’s one move consisted of guarding the ball with his body and then shooting fading away. I’d argue he’s a better offensive threat than Brandt as well, though he’s worse on the defensive end. Collier should start. No question there.
My personal favorite lineup consists of Cunningham, Collier, Burton, Starks and Nelson. Or if you want to go big, put Brandt in there instead of Starks.
In short, don’t give up on this team. It’s depressing to lose. But the sun will still rise tommorow. And you will still be a beaver fan, crankiness and all.
I noticed you left out FT%. I am too lazy to go look it up right now, but my guess it is getting down into the 30’s? Also, how many times does he use the same baseline move with increasingly diminished results? Last night, he had a couple that went off of Wazzu players that could have easily been turnovers. Does he or CR not think that other teams look at film? He is also left wide-open from about 20 ft out by the opposition and obviously does not have that range. Sorry, but at 6’7″ he will need it to be effective. I say Brandt is more of the future and needs to developed accordingly.
Don’t you dis Roo. Don’t you even think about it.
Love the stats though. Stat-wise, Burton is pretty good; he runs the offense well, makes hard passes, etc. But his FTs are terrible, and he’s slow on D. Not the worst, but deifnitely not good enough.
I am not so sure you can say Brandt is better than Burton on D. Both guys let opponents get deep position and neither is very active on that end of the floor. To me they are pretty similar players. Burton takes more risks and as a result creates more on the offensive end but at the same time gets more TO’s. Burtons FT shooting is atrocious…. he shoots with both hands like a elementary school kid. I can’t believe no one has taught him the correct form. The only thing Brandt does to distinguish himself is shoot with range. He has a great looking stroke but when you look at his stats it is ugly. I notice he now hesitates a lot and doesn’t always shoot the open look. It is a bad thing when shooters start to hesitate. It is too bad because if Gomis is the defensive presence we are hoping for we could play Collier and Gomis together and have Brandt come off the bench to space the floor.
Best case scenario is Gomis is the real deal and Brandt and Burton can fight for the scraps next year.
How the fuck does Burton get 31 minutes?! That is just suicide. Brandt gets just 16 minutes? unreal. How does Burton end up playing more actual minutes than Jared Cunningham?! Fuck it Burton is a horrible free throw shooter and turnover prone, pretty sure Daniel Deane can do that. Deane is a better rebounder and doesn’t look like Keith Pankey trying to move out there.
Just wondering, Deane stopped getting playing time last season but Burton continues to get a ton, why is that? Burton isn’t exactly an upgrade. I will take Deane over him at this point. I feel more comfortable with Deane at the foul line more than I do Keith Pankey in basketball shoes. He can at least in his make 2 in a row at the line.
Free throw shooting isn’t even hard and these guys make it look like a half court shot.
I think we all wouldn’t be so irritated with this team if they could the fundamental things well, which of course they fuck up every single time. It’s almost as if they aren’t strongly enforced in practice. They always play the same and make the same mistakes. They seem to be players who were never taught how to properly play the game, thus they play out of control and throw up wild shots. Few players nowadays can teach themselves the fundamentals and thus end up going to college like the current Beavers. Craig needs to realize he needs to step in and crack down on his players and hammer the fundamentals and by next season they would be as fundamentally sound as say Duke. If you think about it, the Beavers being very fundamentally sound with their amount of talent would be a tough team to beat.
I may be the most frustrated Beaver fan with their inability to finish plays, consistently make threes and free throws. It frustrates me so much because I am a player myself(playing at MHCC later this year) and the things they don’t do well I excel at. I taught myself the fundamentals so it really shouldn’t be that difficult. With the Beavers though, it is impossible.
It is obvious to me at least, that Craig is clueless. His ability to coach is definitely in question. Burton and Haynes continue to make mistakes and he won’t pull them, other guys make those same mistakes and get benched. Starks is a perfect example of that. You can’t have a coach who plays favorites. I don’t understand it. He plays the less talented guys over those who should get more minutes, not surprisingly this doesn’t work well. He just doesn’t get it as a coach. We as fans have made excuses more him and blamed talent and said give him more time. The team just isn’t getting better and often looks poorly coached. No way around it. He loves giving playing time to guys who cost the Beavers games and never seems to learn that they’re not smart or good players. I’ve lost all faith in him as a coach.
I like the talent for next season, but do we believe he can take the Beavers to the NCAA Tournament, let alone the NIT? I don’t think so. He’s shown no evidence that he can take the Beavers to something other than the CBI. It’s frustrating because of the potential the Beavers have for next season.
If they end up being a damn good team next season with Craig I will admit I was wrong, doubtful that will happen though.
I believe if the Beavers went to Randy Bennett again he would say yes this time to coaching the Beavers. This team has much more potential and talent this time around, so I believe he would say yes.
I really don’t think any of the players listen to him all that closely or else he has nothing to say. Did you notice that even on their strategy at the end, Nelson goes out and fouls their best foul shooter with about 30 seconds left. Was that the strategy? What the hell did they talk about in the huddle?
Lamar Hurd is never very critical of Robinson, but he even said he did not understand why they just did not just play tough defense, get a stop and set up a final play to get a three pointer to tie and send into OT at home. So instead, we get 12 seconds run off of the clock and then Nelson fouls their best guy thirty five feet from the basket? Help me understand this? It has to be on CR, right?
The plan was to go for the steal. When that failed, Robinson yelled “foul!”…of course, a lot of time had passed by that point, and they fouled the best free throw shooter on WSU…
Deane must have did something we are not hearing about to get in the doghouse. I mean, we are not talking about a great player here, but he always tried hard, rebounded and actually had a three point shot. If you look at his past, he had the occassional 10 point 6 rebound game. I don’t see a lot that differentiates Deane from Burton at this point.
Deane is flat terrible and shouldn’t even be on the team. Dude is plain dumb. He doesn’t even know what a snowcone is called. True Story.
I’m done watching this team until Robinson goes or by some miracle the players pull their own heads out without the coach’s help and play some real basketball. Until then I think I’m better off watching the women’s team, who are literally scratching and clawing their way in every game and won the other day. You’re right to wonder about Rueck, Angry- even if he hasn’t coached men he knows how to teach the game and right now that’s all we fucking need. If you can’t make a team of spectacular players- make a team of tough players that end up coaching one day. That’s what I say, anyway.
Maybe Robinson crosses paths with Rueck while sharing the gym and learns a thing or two from the ladies.
Perhaps El Sara Greer and Sage Indendi can play for the men’s team.
Doesn’t that describe our football team…? Not much hope on that front either. You need both pieces, recruits and coaching.
All the women’s coach has shown is that he can take inferior talent and win a few games that he shouldn’t… exactly like CR. I know we are bummed and the team is falling short of expectations but let’s try to think rationally here.
I’m sure glad I was called away at half-time. It’s beginning to look like CR’s plan is to recruit talent that’s so good that the players will compensate for his lack of coaching ability. So far it ain’t working.
I’m left with a feeling of dispair wondering if Bobby D will screw this up further by offering CR a contract extension.
Imho the it’s up to Dr. Ray to step up and get the ship (athletic department) headed in the right direction.
Sounds like you believe CR is a good recruiter, but a bad bench coach. If so, I agree with you strongly.
I do give CR credit for recruiting better players than OSU has had in recent years. Cunningham, Nelson, and Starks have talent. Same for Collier. Jury still out on some of the other guys who haven’t had a chance yet (Moreland, Brown, Murphy). Evidence so far is that CR is a good recruiter.
But I don’t give CR much credit at all as a bench coach. His substitution patterns don’t make sense. He plays the seniors (esp. Calvin and Lathen) too much, and at the wrong times. He doesn’t manage the clock well in close games. He is too predictable with his choices and timing of offensive and defensive schemes. He yanks the young guys (Starks and Nelson in particular) when they make a single mistake, which will cause them to play scared and tentative. He allows the older players (esp. Haynes) to get away with ball-hogging, bad shots, and other selfish play game after game, esp. in crunch time. Etc.
I’m sure Craig is a smart guy. But he’s got a lot to learn as a bench coach. Can he improve significantly as a bench coach in the next year or two or three? Maybe so (but probably not). If not, he will — as you say — have to recruit fantastic talent if OSU is going to win the PAC-12 anytime soon (because it’s tough to win consistently with bad bench coaching….and that’s what CR is providing).
Anybody know what Jimmy Anderson is doing these days?
He’s usually is at the games. Him and Craig are far too similar.
Can we all just keep in mind that our best players are freshman and sophomores? In college basketball, having vets is gigantic, and we’re lacking in that department. These are young, talented players trying to figure out how to play the game. So yes, they make mistakes, and yes, they play very hot-and-cold, but that’s what young players do.
If you want to dis Craig, do so for not making his team shoot 1000 FTs a game, or making bad subs. But young players playing exactly like young players? That’s not anyone’s fault, that’s human nature.
That is a great explanation for college football but basketball is much different. There are often players who play only a single year of basketball and are fantastic. Just last year: John Wall. Sure, they can be rare but its not as much of an excuse, basketball is a sport where one player can significantly change the game, even as a frosh.
I disagree. Kentucky had 6 NBA players on their team and they still couldn’t win it all. Experience counts for a lot in college basketball. It is pretty rare you find a freshman capable of leading a team deep in a tourney run. K-Love comes to mind but he is putting up Moses Malone like stats in the NBA.
I personally was not thinking of that level of impact (being an OSU fan!), but I think there are plenty of freshman around the country who step in and make their teams much better. College basketball is a young man’s game!
I think we are most irritated about the fact that Craig doesn’t allow his young guys develop. If you don’t let them play through some mistakes here and there, they’ll get scared and think too much and won’t play with confidence, fearing they’ll get pulled for 1 mistake. Nelson and Starks are both better than Haynes, yet he doesn’t get pulled when he’s killing the team and Nelson and Starks get pulled for minor mistakes. Nelson is struggling right now and a lot of it his Craig has shot his confidence. He plays tentatively and tries so hard not to make a mistake that he makes tons.
I expect the young guys to make mistakes because that’s what young do guys do, but you have to give them some freedom and a chance to mature and develop. Craig isn’t doing that right now.
Vets are only gigantic in basketball if you’re making a run at a title. Young guys can take you to an NCAA Tournament berth. Basketball isn’t as reliant on vets as football is. If the Beavers had a better coach, they would have 5 more wins in my opinion.
@BeaverBeliever: right on. I agree with pretty much everything you said in this post. Like you, I’m not criticizing the younger players. On the contrary, I’d like to see the younger players (Starks, Nelson, Cunningham) get much more playing time, plus the freedom to play through their mistakes (which are inevitable and forgivable when dealing with freshmen and sophomores who have had limited D1 experience). My beef is with the seniors (especially Calvin Haynes) and with Coach Robinson for playing the seniors rather than the younger players.
They have all pretty much been through a season by now anyway. Basketball is so much different. You are only talking about five guys on the court. If they are going to play they have to make an impact right away. Time to “develop” is in practice and the non-conference. Like we have pointed out with Burton, he has had almost two seasons, still making the same mistakes and not improving significantly in any category.
Well Roberto didn’t have the chance to develop much in the non conference due to the fact he wasn’t eligible till December 10. He was coming on early in the conference season and then all of the sudden Craig stunted his develop by always pulling him out of the game whenever he made a minor mistake. I remember when Roberto at the end of the non conference wouldn’t hesitate and attack the rim with ease and was confident. Now he’s afraid to shoot. I think he believes that if he misses or it’s not the shot Craig prefers that he will yanked out of the game. He has been hurt the most by Craig’s inability to develop players. Roberto has a chance to be a spectacular player, but Craig has done him no favors.
Let me pose this question? If Calvin Haynes and Burton got minimal minutes say 10 a game or so, and Starks,Cunningham,Nelson, Collier and Brandt/Johnson got the majority of the minutes and were allowed to play through their mistakes and get better, how many more wins would they have?
I think maybe 3 or 4 more wins. I would play a little bit of devil’s advocate on Nelson. Was he not developing in practice last year? He had a year of practice against other D-1 players, right? Again, that could be on CR. You have to ask yourself what was Roberto learning for that year? I think if anything CR’s bizarre substitution patterns have stunted the team which goes to your point about minutes. Look how Collier is progressing now that he is getting minutes.
Well as far as Nelson goes, I think he seemed to have developed decently from what I saw from him right away in limited minutes. Although, it is tough to develop when you sit out a year and don’t get in any actual games. Scrimmages and practices just aren’t the same. For me, I believe Craig just expects all his players to develop on their own and have talent win games. I would like to see a Beavers practice once, it would be nice to see how much coaching really goes on. My guess is not a whole lot.
My lineup that needs to be the regular one, Starks, Cunningham, Nelson, Collier and Brandt. Everyone in the lineup needs 25 minutes a night at least. There is no good reason they shouldn’t play that much. 4 of those 5 struggled early on vs WSU but got them the lead back. Then Craig put in the blues brothers and screwed things up.
Crazy thing is, I used to be a big supporter of Craig Robinson. I thought he would take the Beavers back to what they used to be 20+ years ago. Every time he would screw up during games I would dismiss it as “lack of talent” and “losing culture”. Then I watched the Seattle U game this year and it hit me, this guy can’t coach.
Just a thought, how would the guys do if Haynes and Burton weren’t playing? I’m secretly, well not secret anymore, but I’m wishing they get hurt. Nothing serious, just enough to keep them out a month or so. The team would look dramatically better. Craig couldn’t turn to them to screw things up(this sounds eerily like football season talking about Keith Pankey).
It amazes me that Bob De Carolis doesn’t take more heat. He makes horrible hires and horrible decisions. He gave Riley the ridiculous contract and gave Craig an extension when he hasn’t had a winning season. Rueck is the only good hire. I’d be okay with it if he wasn’t back as AD.
http://www.portlandtribune.com/sports/story.php?story_id=129703110262395200
Loved that article. He told the truth throughout. He basically talked mostly about what us as fans feel about this team. Craig seems to be all talk. Saying he would play man-to-man yet has played it hardly at all. He always has excuses, talking about a lack of depth. The Beavers play 10 guys a game. That’s more than a lot of other teams that play man defense.
Now, if only Eggers wouldn’t ass kiss Riley and be brutally honest about the football team for once, I’d respect him more.
I was coming in to link that article. LIke you said for all of Eggers kissing of Riley’s ass, he seems willing to take on Robinson. Article pretty much sums up my feelings. I wonder he if every comes in here?
Angry pointed out awhile back that Eggers and RIley have been friends for over 30 years. Has Egggers ever mentioned that in an article?
I doubt he would mention it. I don’t read him much anymore. I couldn’t take his ass kissing of Riley. I would find it odd if he admitted it, kind of would hurt his credibility when discussing the football program.
My observations of CR were at a fball game this year. Louisville I think. I noticed how he was in the student section with his players hanging out. I thought that was pretty cool. It seems his players really like him, but they don’t fear his wrath if they undisciplined basketball . He seems to foster his player/coach relationships as if he were their summer AAU coach. And we know what brand of basketball that produces.
His in-game coaching is suspect as well, but he hasn’t been a coach all that long. Most coaches at d-1 level have paid their dues coaching at the lower levels for years before they become the head man at a major university. And his assistants have about as much experience as he does. The product on the court shows the inexperience on the bench.
Buker actually linked the Egger’s article today, now it would be nice if Buker actually grew a pair and asked Robinson some insightful questions as well since Oregon Live has a hell of a lot more readership than the Portland Tribune.
Not sure where to put this link – interesting article, I think – references Michael Oriard – a dean at OSU –
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/01/31/110131fa_fact_mcgrath
That’s a fascinating article. Except for the mention of the play clock in the third to last paragraph, it was intelligent and insightful… and a little depressing.
I woke up early this morning and watched the first half of the documentary “Gasland” before I was so enraged with W’s administration that I had to turn the TV off. I’m now convinced that Cheney (of the dick variety) and W are more than bombastic morons. I’m certain that they hate America, Americans and everything good America once represented. But I felt a guilty lament that I lived in a region of the country lucky enough to not have natural gas reserves anywhere near it. I was slightly happy that the Pacific Northwest would at least be safe from Halliburton absolutely shitting on the remainder of the country. Industry, energy, politics and water rights may be another story, but at least those fuckers can’t poison me like they are the poor suckers in the 34 states unlucky enough to have natural gas reserves.
Now I feel the same about football. My fandom comes with a price not wholly understood. I’m not sure what to think about it in the future from a viewing perspective. But at least I know enough to never let my kids play football or hockey.