14.May.2012 General Discussion (& Database Issues)

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Apologies for the site being down most of the day. It was my fault….was tinkering in the home directory and accidentally deleted an important fie. I was able to restore, but my most recent backup was a few days old. You'll notice we lost a few days worth of posts. Oh well, it could have been a lot worse (typical Beaver attitude!). It was a really bad deal by me.

Hah.

I lost the post about large donors. I liked that one, so if anyone has a copy in their browser cache email it to me.

Anyway, another slow week upon us. We're semi-following baseball, but I feel like most of us are just waiting until fall to see if the team tanks, and we can tee off on Riley…let's be honest: it's the most interesting sport and story. Oh to be a Beaver.

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  • WFO WFO says:
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    Grounds for termination if not for your contract.

    Somebody write a check!

  • slamadam says:
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    the site is still sort of finding it’s identity.

    • angry angry says:
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      It’s a real neat story, though, isn’t it?

  • WFO WFO says:
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    Angry is definitely the starter for this site,he’s the glue that holds this place together.

  • ObjCritic says:
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    Wow, P.R. machine rolling – Riley and Robinson doing “road shows” – note Robinson not doing the two smaller gigs:

    http://cliffkirkpatrick.mvourtown.com/2012/05/14/pr-machine-going/

    Why would people pay $35-40 to listen to Riley’s vague remarks? What will Bobby D think of next?

    Hopefully Riley learns something from Robinson…

    • angry angry says:
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      The Oregon State PR Machine. Watch out Ministry of Truth.

    • bendbeaver bendbeaver says:
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      I would think you’d be interested in going so you can tell Riley how to coach his team.

      • Jack says:
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        I would think you’ve been here long enough to realize that most of us are a little brighter than to try to talk on other message boards with all the blindly apologetic, let alone do something as futile as talk to a wall.

        • bendbeaver bendbeaver says:
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          So are you under the impression that other coaches sit down to chat with fans to discuss strategy and take input on what defensive adjustments are needed to beat your rival and that the offensive coordinator should be fired?

          • Jack says:
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            Yes, some fans do get access like this. It’s not as specific or broad as your straw man, but it happens. I wouldn’t expect it for $40, though. I would suspect access like this only comes with monster donations. That’s your first failure in this argument.

            When there is nobody with such access and the voice of the fans is a mixed bag, then the bunker mentality is justified in the apologist’s mind.

          • bendbeaver bendbeaver says:
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            I suppose it was a straw man argument, but my response was based on your comment ‘talk to a wall’, as if you should expect to have his ear for $40. Now you’re shifting your statement to say that ‘monster donations’ provide this kind of access. Are you sure no big donors have this kind of access with Riley? Do big donors of other teams have this access? What kind of input does PK give Kelly? I’m sure Meyer is all ears with Bucknut donors.

            Remember to answer objectively and not with fantasy.

          • Jack says:
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            What are the conditions for Kelly and Meyer? If they lose two years in a row, will they stone the people who would and could ask for change, including a unified fandom?

            Maybe Mack Brown is more relevant to your argument?

          • bendbeaver bendbeaver says:
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            You’re trying to dodge my point. We weren’t talking about expectations for success for Kelly and Meyer, I was asking you about how receptive other coaches are to big donors. When Kelly and Meyer lose 2 years in a row, do you think the donor suggestions are going to be listened too and put in place, or will those donors feel like they are ‘talking to a brick wall’?

          • Jack says:
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            If, after two losing years, those donors do feel like they are talking to a brick wall at those locations, then they will make damn sure reality is just them talking to a brick wall while the coaches are pounding bricks.

            You wanted to use those names. I just wanted you to be clear about what you thought you were getting into.

            Btw, who authorized making my wall out of brick? Is that to keep me from mentally pounding my head against it?

          • bendbeaver bendbeaver says:
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            What am I getting into? My point is that Riley is no different than any other coach with regard to donor influence. If you have evidence (reality) to show otherwise, I’ll look at that. If your issue is that Riley hasn’t been fired after 2 losing seasons, then I think your issue is with BDC.

          • Jack says:
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            You constructed an argument about an orange then asked me to compare it to two apples. The two apples’ schools would likely kick the AD to the curb if he did something stupid like try to save the apples after they decide to shun boosters/fans/donors input for the same old same old.

          • bendbeaver bendbeaver says:
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            Riley has shunned donor and fan input the same way any other coach would (my point restated), no matter how many losing seasons they have. Do you think a school is going to have a positive view and respect of their football coach who sits back and takes recommendations from fans after losses?

          • Jack says:
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            That’s the way the business works, and it’s worked a much higher percentage of the time compared to the strict model you’re suggesting, which usually grows discontent rather than subdues it. The common denominator in all these models is a call for change. I’m not saying fans getting into the weeds with the coaches is this model. We as fans throw out wholesale ideas that we know work for other schools. Some are good. Some are bad or equal to the same old. But the point is that a part of the coach’s job is to listen to the fans/donors/boosters and to diplomatically sate their sense of involvement.

            If the coach spurns all attempts to brainstorm, no matter how silly, he (or she) loses the fandom. And when that happens, the program slips into apathetic obscurity, or the fandom rises up in one very large upset voice… which will happen at a slower rate with the first instance as well.

            When fans say, “we need to recruit better,” or, “we need to adapt our schemes to account for the personnel we have on hand,” and the coaches return that input with, “Ha! Maybe you think you can do better,” then there is a disconnect.

            I have never, ever, told a client who was even mildly upset to just calm down, let alone challenge them with some silly, mocking red herring. I have been upset when certain clients demand something which is impossible or less efficient. And I discussed my discontent in these situations with my colleagues, who were able to counsel me in terms of either logistics which would comply to my clients’ demands or diplomatic methods of resolution. But I have never ignored, scoffed at, been flippant with or outwardly hostile to a client.

            That’s just bad business.

            And the business of college sports is one part recruiting, one part game and one part revenue. Ignore even one of those parts, and you fail. Some coaches concentrate on the first two in order to facilitate the third. Some work all three with mastery.

            So when we get mixed messages from our coach about suspensions and punishments, or even strange answers about our programs goals involving phrases like “still searching for our identity,” do you think (to borrow your words) a school is going to have a positive view and respect [for] their football coach?

            I’m here to tell you that’s a pretty hard task to ask of the fans/donors/boosters.

        • OSU4Life says:
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          I’m getting there Jack….. I guess I’m either a slow learner, or optimistic that the rest of Beaver Nation will come to the same realization(s) that most of us have?

          • Jack says:
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            Take a look at angry’s first post:
            http://angrybeavers.wordpress.com/2009/07/31/beavers-offensive-line-walk-ons/#comments

            That was three years ago, and we suffered through a lot of trolls between then and now who said that this was just bull-pucky talk from people who must be Ducks/pessimists/haters/whatever. Cav, Canfield and Quizz did pull a miracle for that season, but it was soon lost to the reality of the situation.

            Looking at reality and calling something better or worse isn’t the definition of optimism or pessimism. That’s the definition of fantasy. Taking it for what it is and “knowing” that it will be better or worse without reason is equally silly. Hope, or the lack of, is the only constant in the correct definitions of those words.

            Taking stock of reality, reasoning that this or that has worked in other real situations of similar circumstance, and hoping that we get to see this or that or something equally brilliant and new to correct the deficiencies in our reality is not only healthy, it’s quintessentially optimistic. If we were here complaining about reality and suggesting this or that which has proven to not work in other similar circumstances, then we would be pessimistic. If we were to be blindly faithful and/or apologetic, then we would just be thoughtless drones.

          • bendbeaver bendbeaver says:
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            Sorry Jack, but you contradict yourself in this post. You called the ’09 season a ‘miracle’, but in reality, it was a good team. Calling that team a miracle says you are making the team worse than they actually were. which by your definition, is fantasy.

            Take stock in the reality of the ’09 team. They were good.

          • Jack says:
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            The team itself was decent as far as talent was concerned. They obviously were not as talented as the ’08 team, which makes their actual teamwork that much better. The O-line was pretty poor though, and what Cav did with a frosh at LT, a solid C and an average Pac RT was simply miraculous. Add Canfield’s poise and accuracy and Quizz as an un-scouted X-factor, and the results were much better than what was on paper.

            So yes, as a team, there was a tremendous effort just to be a 6-3 team in the Pac. They played above their own talent level just to be an 8-5 team overall, and they were within one score of all their losses except the bowl game if I recall correctly. So they were a great team in terms of effort. But they were not a good team in terms of talent.

            You would do better to argue that miracles don’t exist if you really want to play the semantics game.

          • bendbeaver bendbeaver says:
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            You started the semantics game by pointing out reality vs. fantasy, I was just picking that apart. The season being a ‘miracle’ and ‘miraculous’ is your opinion and it’s the opinion of a pessimist. In your above post, you support the point that there’s more to a successful team than just talent, but when someone points out where they see elements outside of talent that can contribute to more wins next season, it seems like they are disregarded as fantasy.

          • Jack says:
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            I used actual definitions. You’ve conflated everything for your own purposes.

          • bendbeaver bendbeaver says:
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            You did use actual definitions, and then proceeded to say it was a miracle (fantasy), but in reality it was a good team. I think I already made this point anyway.

          • Jack says:
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            Ahhhh… so you are playing the semantics game.

            Tell me, when you’re watching some sport and the announcer says, “he’s on fire right now,” do you worry for someone’s life?

            When you’re watching a movie and a character says, “that girl’s hot,” are you looking for the steam or a thermo reading or some actual evidence of her being hot?

            Semantics are just dumb when they’re pounding repeatedly into the ground.

          • bendbeaver bendbeaver says:
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            Jack’s posts=circular and evasive, unclear.
            My posts=concise and to the point, clear.

          • Jack says:
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            You conflate everything to make your argument, except when you want to pull out a single word to incorrectly parse it. Your game of semantics doesn’t even work.

            Remember I said you would do better to argue that miracles don’t exist. I didn’t say you would succeed, since you don’t seem to know the meaning of the word in a literal or even a figurative sense.

            Jack=Host
            bendbeaver=Norman St. John Polevaulter

          • bendbeaver bendbeaver says:
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            Man, I just got busted by Jack. You want postive, here goes:
            Beavs improve record-wise and bowl quality in the next 3 seasons. This Fall there will be at least one win against either Oregon, Wisconsin, or Stanford. Riley gets praise for developing a team that’s better than they appear on paper.

            The pessimist says this is fantasy, the optomist says this is reality.

          • Jack says:
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            In the context of “I think this can happen,” I’m on board with this. I wouldn’t state it as fact, though. I think the odds are against us there.

            I think this team is better on paper than the 2009 team, with the exception of the DT position and CB depth. And I’m supposing a lot based on the incoming frosh talent. I really like the 2012 Class at the O-line, RB, TE and DB (though it could have been better… c’est la vie?). I’m also higher on the LB prospects than some here, and I’m intrigued by the Samoans, who we probably won’t see next year anyway.

            I hope that A Seumalo progresses even more at the DT, which would make him pretty good there. But I still worry about the overall play from all those players. Someone young has to step into those roles and play to a medium level in order to let our DE’s loose.

            And I really like the difference in attitude projected from this spring versus the past several springs, and falls for that matter. I think we have a good core of players who are finally stepping into leadership roles and starting to demand their hyper-competitive will be emulated by their teammates.

            Right now, I just want to see them play with consistent effort. I think good things happen when they do that first.

            And I think the addition of Perry has been a huge upgrade over Hayward on the coaching side. We need to wait to see what happens on the recruiting side to get the whole picture, but I don’t see how he comes close to failing if he gives recruits even half the energy he’s given his current players by just talking to them.

          • angry angry says:
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            Bend, “miracle” and “fantasy” aren’t synonyms.

          • CVO beav says:
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            Bend, unless you start negative and go down hill on the beavs, you won’t make it on this “reality” based board.

          • Jack says:
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            He can start by at least going positive. That might work too.

          • Jack says:
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            Or I should say he should start talking about what he thinks of certain circumstances rather than just talk about what others write. He has the semi-sardonic with down pat. He just needs to get away from the “why do you think” and go to the “I think” portion of the conversation.

            Sure, he’ll catch flack from some sector. Name someone here who doesn’t… here or in life.

          • Jack says:
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            *wit*

            Am I developing a typing lisp?

          • bendbeaver bendbeaver says:
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            P.S. I like to hear why others think something.

          • Jack says:
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            That’s fine. We would like to hear what you think sprinkled in as well.

          • mckalk says:
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            It would be a “miracle” if my “fantasy” became a reality…..wait wrong forum…sorry about that!

          • Jack says:
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            Dear angry,

            I never thought something like this would happen to me, but….

          • angry angry says:
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            The Pac was down in ’08 and ’09. Beavs were decent those years and willed to wins by the Rodgers bros. Without those two players they’d have been exposed much earlier.

            The best post-Fiesta team was ’06.

  • BeavGirl BeavGirl says:
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    9/5/2012
    here you go (via google cache)

    Oregon State alumni base consists of:

    The founder U-Haul
    Co-founder of E-trade
    Co-founder of Classmates.com
    Co-founder of Nvidia
    Inventor of Leatherman tools
    Former president and CEO of Hewlett-Packard

    Here’s a more complete list: click me

    And here’s a list of notable athletes: click me

    There are many small, successful (i.e. multi-millionaire) businessmen who aren’t on the Wikipedia list, so it is far from definitive.

    We’re stuck with Riley forever because “nobody wants to cut a check”, and OSU doesn’t have basketball (practice) facility because nobody will pony up (twittering Gary Payton??).

    I know some higher end BASF members read this site. I freely admit I don’t understand or relate to the opulent lifestyle, but if I had that kind of cash I’d donate generously to the athletic department. So, my question is this: why does OSU seem to lack large donors (more so than other universities of this size)? Is it that the donors aren’t interested in athletics? Is it that the AD has rubbed people the wrong way? It is a combination of things? Is it something else entirely? Or perhaps I’m wrong all together and the amount in donations OSU receives falls within the realm of normal. But it seems like we’re always broke, never hear of large donations (since Al Reser’s passing), and the university is out of touch with past alums. And speaking of Al Reser–who received his estate, and are they still actively involved/donating to OSU?

  • OSU4Life says:
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    Is it safe to say that the year 2000, “Fiesta Bowl” team was a fluke, or an anomaly? I just don’t see OSU ever making another BCS Bowl again, under the current conditions. First of all they would have to have a winning record in the month of September, and they would have to beat Nikegon. I don’t think Mike Riley will ever defeat Chip. I would love it if the OSU athletic department shared the same expectations and passion as the rest of us do!

    • NCAA_viOlation NCAA_viOlation says:
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      I wouldn’t say it was a fluke. That team played their asses off and earned that ranking. Now, some of the players on the team may not have been following the NCAA rulebook the whole time they were here, which made us just as dirty then as Oregon is now, just without the money to keep the project rolling. Remember, our penalties were off the charts that season. So if given the choice, which would you rather have? A team that wins but forces you to turn the other cheek? Or a team that makes the occasional bowl game, but plays moatly by the rules? You’ve been watching option 2 since Riley came back. He almost got us to the BCS in 2 straight seasons.

      • Fightingbeaver says:
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        The 2000 “Fiesta Bowl” team and coach Dennis Erickson was NO fluke. In those days it was great to see our home game’s always a sell out, our stadium overflowing with excited and happy fans. Why?…….because the Beavers were a winning team. They trained hard and played hard and coach and team WANTED TO WIN and did win.

        The whole attitude of team, AD, coaches was different then. It was great to see “swagger”, confidence and a determination to get to the best bowl possible. You could see and listen to the confidence in the players when interviewed.

        Now, under Riley, there is little or no excitement, confidence, swagger or any showing by the coach that a goal of a Pac championship or BCS bowl is in the works. Riley’s goal, if any, is to get a toilet bowl if possible.

        It seems that a good number of fans also have lowered their expectations of the Beavers football program. It’s sad to see so many ready to settle for mediocre football.

        I for one attended all the home games and some of the away games of the 2000 season and also the Fiesta Bowl. The bottom line is YOU CAN’T BEAT WINNING. It was NO fluke at all.

      • SanDiegoBeav says:
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        In response to NCAAViolation: I don’t necessarily consider committing penalties to be “dirty.” There is a big difference between recruiting violations, etc. and committing penalties on the field. The team played with incredible emotion and when they went over the top, they were penalized for it. Big deal-they accepted the penalties and still won. The rulebook was followed perfectly in my opinion. Would you rather have a team that “breaks the rules” by committing false start after false start or a team that “breaks the rules” by getting too excited when they make a great play?

    • bone says:
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      I wouldn’t say it was a fluke that the 2000 team went and won the fiesta bowl, that was a damn good team. But was it a fluke that an Oregon State football team made a BCS bowl? History would say yes, 40 years and only 1 BCS bowl and 30 years have been losing seasons. We have been close a few other times, but I think we have a core of young guys that if we can get the right pieces around them I think we could be challenging again.

  • WFO WFO says:
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    *He almost got us to the BCS in 2 straight seasons.*

    1: Horseshoes and hand grenades.

    2: Second place is the first loser.

  • matt b says:
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    The roadshow will be productive. But I think the Gus Malzahn show where he and staff have visited all 200 plus high schools in Arkansas in a five day period is a better idea that will generate more long term revenue and help reduce cost of recruiting by forging personal bonds with a wide range of coaching contacts.

  • Bob says:
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    I feel exposed. I’m semi following baseball but really just waiting around for the fall so I can see if the football team tanks, then I can settle Riley’s hash. Metaphorically speaking of course…

  • ObjCritic says:
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    Lot to like about this 2014 RB Kurt Scoby. 5′ 8″ 215? Great work ethic (works out at 5:30 am), humble. OSU his first offer, interest in USC, Nebraska, PAC-12, wants a school “with a huge offensive line, academics.”

    http://oregonstate.scout.com/2/1186309.html

    • bone says:
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      That dude is a FREAK!

    • ObjCritic says:
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      Just think: OSU will have a big offensive line from the “haul of ’12,” Storm Woods will be RS JR, with Chris Brown and Thomas Tyner in the fold, this kid will be able to redshirt, probably put on another 10-15 lbs, and the OSU dynasty will keep a’rollin’ along….

      • bone says:
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        Do you think Tyner is going to switch his commitment?

        • ObjCritic says:
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          That was sarcasm, as is the idea of landing Scoby.

          • Bone says:
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            I thought that was a uncharacteristically optimistic coming from you. We can hope though!

      • tim318 says:
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        Sorry, I don’t see Thomas Tyner choosing OSU over UO.

        • bone says:
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          yeah I have a hard time seeing that also, but who knows still early.

  • tim318 says:
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    Is anyone else a little depressed that UO is on the verge of a Pac 12 baseball championship?

    Talk about a good year for them (conference champs in FB, Baseball, and M&W Track, plus an over-achieving M basketball team). OSU won conference in wrestling. Gymnastics went to nationals and finished about the same as in the past. Women’s soccer had a good year and women’s basketball was a surprise.

    • bone says:
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      I think the fact that Oregon can build a championship contending baseball program in as short of time that lots and lots of money in an athletic department can build programs quickly. Kids these days like the bells and whistles.

    • numbers says:
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      Thank god Arizona will pass them by for baseball conference championship. But hey its fun to be a front runner and play all your games early.

    • GoBeavs90 says:
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      Winning a conference title in baseball really just isn’t that huge of a deal. Postseason is what matters and the Ducks are not going further than the Super Regionals. They’ve overachieved all season, this was their ceiling, OSU, Stanford and UCLA have much hire ceilings in the postseason. There are a few teams who could beat UO in a regional. Mississippi State is a team who’s predicted to be in their regional. Oregon wants absolutely no part of them. They have better overall pitching.

      I don’t worry too much about who wins the conference, postseason is where the best teams show up. UCLA won the conference last year after a late season collapse by OSU. Then UCLA got bounced in the regional. I happen to think OSU will finally put it together against Oregon and play to their potential in the postseason. Wouldn’t be a bad time for that.

  • Beaver Byte says:
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    GSwaim will be talking realignment at 1:20pm on http://1340thefan.com/listen-live/
    This guy is ahead of the curve with this stuff and will have some interesting tidbits to share.
    Should be a good listen on when the Big 12 might try for 12, 14 or even 16 teams.

  • ean says:
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    Beaver Nation Road Show? Is this were I take my OSU antiques to be appraised by experts?

    • Beavergopher Beavergopher says:
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      Nobody wants to look at old Beaver LOL.

  • progressivebeav says:
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    CRob did a SportsNation chat today:

    http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/43831/oregon-st-craig-robinson

    Basic stuff until the last question when asked what newcomer might make an impact. He mentions Gomis. Thought that was interesting. Would be great if the big guy is ready to contribute!

  • slamadam says:
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    anybody got a stream for the baseball game?

  • slamadam says:
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    anybody got a stream for the baseball game?

  • mckalk says:
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    Anybody see where Rhys Murphy has left the program? Guess I’m not surprised.

    • Jack says:
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      Old news. He’s graduating after three years with something like a 3.8 GPA in Psychology.

      And he still has three years of eligibility left, assuming the NCAA thinks graduating in three years is suitable enough academic progress to give him his hardship year back.

      • Jack says:
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        You know. This is why I’ve never used the “rating” system on any posts or comments.

        Someone doesn’t like that Rhys Murphy is a successful student who took advantage of an opportunity to have his schooling paid. And someone doesn’t like that he can now go on to another school and have about 75% of a doctoral degree paid.

        That bugs me. Why hate on Murph?

  • Fightingbeaver says:
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    I watch the 2000 Civil War game last night, one of the ESPN archive specials they ran a few years ago. It was great to see a Beaver football team come on the field and play with confidence and show off their “swagger” to all the fans. You could feel the electricity in the air with all the enthusiasm by players and fans alike, the result of good coaching and team leadership.

    Last years team always looked down and out and could not wait for the game to be over and get off the field. The first few games should show us what this season has in store for us.

    • NCAA_viOlation NCAA_viOlation says:
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      Here’s the first few game results from 2000. I remember back then thinking it was going to be another average season, and expected much better results in the 1st 2 games. Could you imagine if they had lost that Eastern Washington game? They really turned it on in the Pac 10 schedule, but those first couple of weeks were nail biters against bad teams. Just saying, the first couple games don’t always tell you what the season will have in store (unless you lose to Sac. State-haha)

      September 2 3:30 PM Eastern Washington* W 21-19
      September 9 5:05 PM at New Mexico* W 28-20
      September 23 3:30 PM San Diego State* W 35-3

      • Fightingbeaver says:
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        NCAA viOlation, it looks like the 2000 team improved over each of the first three games. If our 2012 team does not improve over the first few games, then that should be a good barometer for things to come.

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