13.Jul.2011 Duck Fan Backlash

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There's been a lot of backlash via email, (Duck) web forums, and the comment section. I'll address some of the public complaints here.

Look, I really used to like this site because you kept it real and I even help support it. But you guys have seriously gone the way of all fan-atical sites regarding your rivals and have now traded in good insight into tabloid journalism for, "ya, and guess what else I heard, Phil gave Lache some rare shoes…".etc.

If it were football season and there was anything going on, I probably wouldn't have written about the Ducks at all. But what they did was too interesting and can't be ignored. We're (a) having fun with it and (b) making sure the media does their job. Of course you hate the site; you have a vested interest in these "rumors" going away. You're misdirecting blame, and this is a you problem. I'm not going to allow your attempt at manipulation via claiming disappointment with me.

Its been a fun ride, sorry to see the site turn into "just another Beaver love fest.

Hilarious. Beaver fans still call me a Duck.

Beaver fans should stop pretending like there is any reason, moral or otherwise, that they spend more than 5 minutes on this story, other than a rivalry over a game. I can list 30+ issues in the world involving morality that have far more substantial implications than whether or not Lyles represented the UO while being paid. If this was about morality for Beavers, this would be the last issue they would be frothing over.

This is a flawed argument. To say morality x is more important than morality y is a logical fallacy (i.e. association fallacy). Also, even if I accept there are moral issues with more substantial implications happening somewhere in the world, why make the jump and deduce that it means we shouldn't look into this moral issue? Should a detective only investigate murder and ignore robberies?

Also, I have yet to see "angry" respond to the central complaint casey has made. That starting unsubstantiated rumors about people is unethical.

This is how my mind works: it's more unethical to out a source who wants to remain anonymous than to start substantiated "rumors" based off a figurative (hey, one has to make this distinction when discussing the Ducks) "smoking gun". I am not a journalist. I don't abide to a strict set of journalistic creeds. Again, your argument runs into a logical fallacy because you are treating me like a journalist when I am, in fact, a blogger. You are also attacking me rather disproving the story. This is called an ad hominem argument.

Really? This is what you are now writing about? If you have proof you should post it and allow it to speak for itself. Or, better yet, send whatever proof you have to the NCAA and let the authorities deal with the matter. But posting rumors and innuendos is just fishing for attention.

Nope, I can't legally share any more than what I did. End of story. If I could, it would be in the Oregonian right now since they approached me asking for the story. And, for what it's worth, I believe the original source did send the information to NCAA compliance. With regard to fishing for attention, that is called histrionic, and it's the opposite of my personality.

Then there is this site:

http://ducksattack.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10681 "You're a moron." etc etc

Enough with the ad hominem arguments. Attacking the source because you can't discredit the claim is weak. If I were to go to a psychologist and tell him, "Doc, people told me I am a moron" he'd probably come back with, "What evidence do you have to support that claim?" at which point I'd be speechless. I did well in school; I have a respectable career; I live with a beautiful woman; I've written and published a well-received novel; etc, etc. Why would I believe I'm a moron when there's no evidence to support the claim? You are wasting your time with these ad hominem arguments. They make you, the Duck fan, feel good for a few seconds. They are the sugar high of debating. If you want an argument with meat on the bone, come at me with proof and sources proving me wrong or don't come at me at all, because anything less is at best a (transparent) jab to make yourself feel good, but more likely it is a complete logical fallacy. And I know what your retort will be: "Angry, you have no proof to support your claim." Choosing to withhold evidence is not equal to dispossessing it.

Finally, don't get on Beavers' cases for having fun with this. As a rival, they have that right. Sometimes I feel bad for Duck fans, and sometimes I feel they're getting their due. Punishment is complex. Sometimes I want to seriously analyze the Duck's situation, and sometimes I just want to poke fun. Human nature is complex. I'm not going to "write to the audience" and tailor opinion so I don't lose Duck readers. If I lose you that is a you issue, and I mean that in the kindest way possible.

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  • Beavocalypse says:
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    To be quite honest, the entire United States doesn’t know how to debate any more. We can see it in our politics and in every argument there is online. I don’t blame the Ducks for going ad hominem with their argument style because a student only has about 2-3 persuasive argument papers. Even at the college level, people can’t write an argument worth shit.

    I, of course, enjoy the internet because I don’t have to follow the rules and I can blurt out whatever emotional shit is in my head- hence, I’ve probably pissed off fellow commenters here. (sorry if I did, by the way). I can understand why others do this, but I know when push comes to shove I can obtain evidence and write a clear, concise argument – which makes me feel pretty good when I watch the Ducks start attacking any Beaver that delights in reporting what they “hear”.

    The problem, Duckies, is that when there are so many rumors, especially those that are certain topics repeated again and again, there is almost ALWAYS a sliver of truth behind them. And if there is a sliver of truth behind these rumors the Ducks deserve to have the spotlight they’ve desperately craved since the Joey billboard.

    On a more personal note, I like the articles you’ve written on the subject, but I’m saddened to see that the Brandin Cooks interview sort of got trumped by even more Duck stuff. Could we talk about even the slightest thing Beaver for a while and leave the feathered fucktards to their fate?

    • angry angry says:
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      You can still post in those threads. Despite what people think, users go back and read them/post. You can also subscribe to your comment (assuming you registered) and receive notification when someone replies.

  • BeaverBeliever20 says:
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    My favorite is the “Beaver love fest”. They can’t read this blog much if they think that ever happens.

    • angry angry says:
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      Yeah, I think because I said the Beavers are accumulating Rose Bowl caliber talent. If I point out when the Beavers do something wrong, he’s interested in reading the blog and likes the fair and balanced view. If I acknowledge when the Beavers do something right, he jumps ship and claims it’s a Beaver love fest. Fickle fickle fickle…

      • UofDuck says:
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        That is not true and not fair Angry. I think you guys are doing well in recruiting and you should be proud of that. In fact if 80% of your stories were about the Beavers I’d have nothing to complain about.

        You write that the Ducks shouldn’t be worth more than 5 minutes of your time? Let’s look at your recent head-lines in order:

        The Problem with conduct (Duck driven)
        Duck Tipsters & other rumors
        Ducking Recruiting Trends in Texas
        Dead Ducks
        Beavers Quietly Collecting R/B Talent
        Interview with Brandin Cooks
        Duck Fan Backlash

        PS – I’m not fickle, I am just discouraged with where you decided to take this site recently. A story or two over the Duck issues is to be expected. But this seems like an obsession at this point.

        • rsteve503 rsteve503 says:
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          The fate of the Ducks concerns all of the conference. The last two year’s champ is under NCAA investigation, and anyone looking can see clear violations. The previous order of things will be changed, and even recent results will probably be revised.

          The fate of the Ducks also concerns all the State of Oregon. It will shame us all.

        • mckalk mckalk says:
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          “Take this site recently”? Kind of obvious that the “duck scandal” is a big enough story to get play here also, right? It’s a blog, Angry has the right to take the blog anywhere he wants. We are free to follow or not. Personally, I would think that it was odd if he did not apply his considerable talents to giving his thoughts on this issue.

  • UofDuck says:
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    “ad hominem” is a personal attack and I never personally attacked anyone and Angry knows I don’t (to be honest – once in a while I poke fun at Greatwhitehunter, but he is good sport and gives back in kind). What I attacked was the way this sight had moved from cutting insight to tabloidism (if that is a word?). Don’t believe it, look at the topic headlines over the last 6 months and tell me you don’t see change? You guys used to critique sports from an interesting view and I found the followers to be pretty intellectual and witty – with a little of the normal anti-rival jabs tossed in. That is awesome and I found it refreshing. Now it sounds just like every other Beaver sight. Spending more time on your rivals issues than what your own team is doing screams insecurity. And some of the claims being made are simply trumped up baseless garbage. Look, I get having a little fun at your rivals expense, we all do it and it is to be expected. But seriously, it has become 85% of Beaver nations focus. Is it because Oregon is a easy target? Or because you are a little insecure? Just think about it Beaves. I’d submit it is a little of both, and if you were being honest, you would probably too.

    If the tables were turned, 85% of Duck fans would do the exact same thing, but I really thought of all the beaver fans out there, you guys would be the 15% that didn’t act like lemmings.

    • angry angry says:
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      Note: I didn’t write “ad hominem” under any of your comments.

    • progressivebeav says:
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      You’re right. There’s so much else to talk about right now! How about the OSU golf team… that PNGA Amateur is exciting shit!

    • JackBeav says:
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      The reason we’re following it is because it is the dominant story in the State of Oregon and the Pac 12. Hell, Larry Scott couldn’t even welcome Utah and Colorado to the new league without being trumped on a national, regional and local level by Nikegon’s problems.

      If Larry Scott can’t get something to cut through the noise, who’s gonna do it?

      The reason we’re following it is because we live among Nikegon fans. And most of them are in shock… at least the ones I know here in Eugene are. Most are just holding on to see what the final outcome might be, but they also know when something is bad.

      And this is bad.

      We laughed when USC was spanked, and we’ll laugh when it happens to Nikegon. But make no mistake, while cheaters exist in our conference we all suffer. And our state suffers as well. There’s no “hoping this isn’t true, because that would be bad for OSU too.” There’s only “lose the cheaters so we can get back to sports. The only good that can come from this now is to remove any guilty parties.

      Ask yourself this about Lyles. If everything was above board and only “grey”, then why has Nikegon distanced themselves from Lyles? Why have they not paid him his $25K due for this year?

      I’m not sure why the Groanian has to look for help on the pot issue. If I can find the place in question by driving around and asking a couple questions here and there (while running errands), then I think someone with some press credentials might be able to sniff out the story.

    • rsteve503 rsteve503 says:
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      LOL…. What is happening at UO right now is THE BIG STORY. You can be a fan of anyting and realize that. It is killing the UO uberfans, because the GREATNESS of UO is what apparently makes their life worth living. And now such aspersions are being cast! Oh, god, how can this be happening! Anyone who criticizes the UO is a MONSTER!

      Yet the reason we criticize, is the BLATANT manner of recent years’ recruiting in Texas. You have some nerve to tell anyone they shouldn’t pay attention to this UO story. It is shameful for the whole state. Everyone should be pointing their finger at UO and saying…”SHAME!”

  • JackBeav says:
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    And what’s the deal with Nikegon fans leaning on hate and envy rationalizations?

    I don’t hate the Ducks on my worst days, and I certainly don’t envy them any more than I envy Auburn, Alabama, TCU, Boise State, Nevada, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Stanford, tOSU, OU, etc., etc., etc….

    In fact, because of ongoing (and soon to be) investigations, I envy Boise, tOSU, Auburn and a couple others less than I do the rest on that list.

    • JackBeav says:
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      I should say one thing about the Ducks and envy. I do envy them their track program and fans. Those fans in a full Hayward Field are just awesome sports fans. And they get to support a team they deserve to have.

      I wouldn’t mind OSU having one-tenth the same situation when track and field is up and running again.

      Does anyone here want to know how I feel about Lynn Snyder?

      • Billy says:
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        As I’ve said before, mention Lynn Snyder around Berny Wagner and stand back!!

    • angry angry says:
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      Yeah, their track team is good.
      I also envy that they have a law school, a more populated city, and the best football stadium in the conference.

      Those are the only envies I can think of…

      • KC says:
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        That Autzen stadium is a work of art. I’m not too found of the city though, just not my swag I guess. Good work everyone, especially you Angry, really proud of the way you responded to the hate mail.

        I don’t know if our track program will ever be like UOs, it’s a shame they killed it when they did… who knows where it could be right now.

      • JackBeav says:
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        Stadium envy is a good one, though, I prefer the Rose Bowl over all others. And I have a feeling I’ll be envying Strawberry Canyon as well.

  • Beavker says:
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    Should Beaver Nation put up a billboard? “The Best BCS Bowls Money Can Buy?” or something a la Michigan/Ohio State? I think it’s been pretty cordial so far. I think we’re all just having a laugh, hoping some Karma bites the Ducks a bit, since the Beavs have plenty of horrific things to ponder over the decades.

    I don’t HATE the Ducks either, ex-Ducks like Eric Castle, Tom Curran, Tony Koker, Paul Jensen, and Chris Vandiver were all people all knew and went to HS with, wilst the Beavs only showcased a couple that I knew Brian Swanson, Todd McKinney…going back a long ways.

    But they will always be a love hate. I’ll love to hate them when they kick our ass and get all cocky (and cheat!), but I’ll hate to love them when I find myself rooting for them despite my outward cries during their inevitable BCS Bowl Game while my team watches from their couches…

    • JackBeav says:
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      “Win the Pay!”

      • UofDuck says:
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        That is actually a pretty good one Jack.

        • JackBeav says:
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          We can put it on 99W, and on the other side we can have a black and orange one that says, “Aw, shucks!”

          • UofDuck says:
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            Now you’re talking. Fist pumping when reading the sign, until we see the other side in the rear-view mirror.

          • blakesgotanewface says:
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            Stick it in Dundee, maximum visibility in traffic combined with drunk belligerents

  • ealexander says:
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    I laugh a little every time I see Duck fan get indignant over someone talking about the investigation. If the shoe was on the other foot, and it was OS being looked at, Duck fan would be elated with the situation.

  • G Joubert says:
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    I’m a beaver but I don’t hate on the ducks, and it’s an inescapable fact that many duck fans have a serious case of denial about the deep trouble the UO football program is in. Rather than get it fixed they want to ignore it and say STFU to anybody who brings it up.

  • BeavGirl BeavGirl says:
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    I haven’t read all of the comments to this post but I do find it pretty funny the ducks are trying SO hard to take the spotlight off of them. I’m also kind of weirded out at the patronizing “dad” role these posters have tried to play with angry. I guess these dudes don’t understand that they aren’t exactly angry’s target market (or his dad apparently). i *almost* feel bad because angry kind of eviscerated their flawed emotional arguments in this post. but oh well o/

  • VA:F [1.9.22_1171]
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    I’m a simple guy. I want what’s best for Oregon State and for the State of Oregon. I don’t hate the Ducks. I don’t really care about the Ducks, one way or another, except insofar as Oregon State and the State of Oregon are affected.

    I acknowledge that both OSU and the State of Oregon have been helped — a lot — by the Ducks’ football program. Thank you, Ducks, for bringing the national media to Oregon on a regular basis over the past few years. Thanks for the national TV telecasts. Thanks for all the attention from ESPN. Thanks for helping the conference to achieve a media deal that should enable Beaver teams to improve a LOT over the next few years.

    And thanks — most recently — for grossly, stupidly, and arrogantly mishandling the Willie Lyles affair. By doing so, you have once again brought the national media to the State of Oregon. You have also provided a big boost to Oregon State recruiting. And — after you get penalized by the NCAA — you will make the Beaver-Duck rivalry a more competitive one.

    From my perspective, it’s all good. That’s not because I want to see the Ducks fall (I really don’t). Rather, it’s because I want to see the Beavers — and the State of Oregon — rise. And that’s what I expect to happen over the next year or two or three…..

  • angry angry says:
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    My brother is an attorney, so I’m embarrassed to ask this, but how does the Cleaner being deputized equate to lack of institutional control? Can someone explain the significance?

    • rsteve503 rsteve503 says:
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      The cleaner being an employee of the UO might mean he helps to cover up as much as possible. Being an employee of the state directly, seems to mean that he is to ferret out all the infractions. I would then expect UO to be told to do some sefl sanctioning, a la tOSU, in the hope of lesser NCAA sanctions.

      The big question, to me, is the security of Kelley. In these NCAA cases, the coaches seem to go, and with Kelley might go the genius that got them to the BIG TIME.

      • angry angry says:
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        How did this all go down? How did the state just take him from Oregon? Can they deputize anyone, and once they do, that person has to work for them? I am just having a hard time understanding why he bailed on Oregon (or was he forced to bail?).

    • oneoldbeav oneoldbeav says:
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      I may be naive, but it seems to me that it is one thing for the school to hire the “Cleaner” and another for the AG to deputize him. If the AG stayed out then the school would be in control of the “Cleaner”, his reports, findings, and advice. The AG, I believe (hope) looked at the situation and felt he had to step in and have some degree of oversight over the “Cleaner’s” activities. Thus my feeling that the AG is demonstrating a lack of confidence in the institutional control currently practiced at U of O.

      I’m not a lawyer (don’t even play one on TV) but that’s my take. I do note that the “Cleaner has been on the job since March and his deputization was reported last week by Steve Duin of the Oregonian. Maybe he was deputized much earlier, maybe the “Cleaner” asked to be deputized because status as an AG Deputy would strengthen his hand in his investigation. Or maybe the AG is demonstrating a lack of confidence in Lariviere’s ability to control the institution.

      • oneoldbeav oneoldbeav says:
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        The quote below from George Schroeder last week:

        “Mike Glazier and three other attorneys from Bond, Schoeneck & King have been deputized as special assistant attorneys general and will work through the state Department of Justice, which serves as the university’s counsel. The university, however, will pay the attorneys’ fees.”

        So, the DOJ is the schools counsel and it appears Lariviere can’t do his own hiring. Does anyone who is “working through the DOJ” get appointed special asst. AG?

        • angry angry says:
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          The way I read that: the DOJ has to be the University’s counsel, so in order for that to happen any attorney they hire must be deputized so he can work for the DOJ. Maybe I am wrong, but that’s how I read it. This might just be a way to get tax parents to collect the tab. Others have said they believe this is damning evidence Oregon will be found guilty. While I do think they will be punished, I don’t see this as anything but procedure/politics.

          • brownale9000 says:
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            I’ve been trying to find even an anecdote anywhere that says whether this ‘deputizing’ has happened before with the investigation of any other NCAA program?

          • UofDuck says:
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            Well said and appreciated. Opinion given with an honest assessment of how you see the issue unfolding.

          • JackBeav says:
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            Yeah, it’s just SOP for the OUS. If OSU were to hire an attorney, s/he would need to go through the same process. It would have happened this way if we decided to defend ourselves from a LaVonda Wagner lawsuit for her termination had it come to that.

            The necessity to hire someone for this purpose speaks to the conditions in Eugene. While it doesn’t say anything definitive about guilt or innocence, that they need an attorney (and others don’t) says something in itself.

  • rsteve503 rsteve503 says:
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    Well, you cant blame the UO uberfans, who for the first time ever have had the taste of the ego rush of ACTUALLY being BIGTIME. And they are loathe to see it in jeopardy. it might have been an illusion….oh, no!

    What I want out of this is to get back to the rivalry that was not transcended by the play of athletes who might not be at UO, but for recruiting cheating. Lets get it honest again, and let the best team win. In that situation, I think OSU will be competitive and win their share.

    • JackBeav says:
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      I disagree with the sentiment that we will level the playing field through their demise. they have been better than us for three years, but that hasn’t been wholly on their part. Look at the personnel we’ve had on the field for those three years.

      Haven’t we been whining about a sub-standard o-line and holes in the D’s back seven over that time? Haven’t we been noting poor play-calling and defensive schemes against spreads? I think those defensive schemes have sucked because of the personnel. And I think we level the playing field on our own through a much improved defense as soon as next year. As has been pointed out, 2012 looks even better. We’ve seen how a second year QB makes the o-line almost bearable with Canfield. And we know that the running game has to be more creative without Quizz.

      As with any innovative offense, opponents figure out their game after a while. I don’t think this newest version of the option lasts as long as the run-n-shoot did. And I know it won’t gain any traction in the NFL, where truly innovative offenses go to die a slow death.

  • HuskyJim says:
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    How does PK finance cheating at NikeU? read below:
    AP Exclusive: Nike faces new worker abuse claims.
    [url]http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/07/13/1743206/ap-exclusive-nike-faces-new-worker.html[/url]

    Richard Lariviere do you have any ethics or is it all out cheating, win at any cost? A UW VP gets criticized for telling the truth about the state of academics at OR.

    $750 shoes or other items sold on Ebay for cash. Sounds like money laundering to me.
    This is turning into an international scandal.

    • JackBeav says:
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      That’s just Nike for you. While I don’t hate Nikegon, I do hate Nike with a passion.

    • rsteve503 rsteve503 says:
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      Looked at from our high standard of living a factory such as Nike, over in a third world country, seems to be a sweat shop, with very low pay, and poor worker conditions. I cant speak about such Nike shops, as I have never seen one, but I have been to several third world countries, and talked to various workers. In general, any factory coming from outside a country is a huge boon to the economy and to the workers there, should they be lucky enough to get such a job.

      Why? Because the factory, even with what appear to be low wages, is probably paying significantly more than other available jobs. And in third world countries there is often a class system and those of the peasant class, are badly treated by the upper classes, as a matter of regular social life.

      So I cant agree that Nike is doing wrong in outsourcing shoe manufacturing. Notice that any country that offers a cheap labor source, like Japan did after WW2, gets manufaturing because of it, and gradually raises their standard of living. When the labor becomes too high priced, the manufacturing moves on, as it did from japan, to Taiwan, China, Malaya. When those become too high priced it will move on yet again.

      • angry angry says:
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        Steve, while corporations do raise living conditions in depressed countries, they also leave the local economies in shambles (i.e. worse off than before) when they find cheaper labor and move out. They also abuse the workers with inhumane shifts, psychical demands, overseers, etc, leaving these people emotionally scarred and feeling worthless.

        Everyone wants to blame the corporations. But, people like you and I who own shares in these companies and demand profits every quarter are to blame, too.

        I don’t have a solution to the problem (other than treat humans like humans), but just wanted to expound on those two points you left out.

        • rsteve503 rsteve503 says:
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          Usually, it seems that industry moves on, only when the general standard of living has risen to the point they cant get cheap labor anymore. In that case, the economy is not left in shambles but is much better off than before. See Japan, Taiwan, Korea etal.

          What I see is an uban myth, that the outsourced industry is a terrible thing. For a poverty stricken country, no industry coming in is the worst case scenario. See most of Africa. In that case, it is probably the civil unrest that keeps foreign investment out. Africa might be the last stop on the movement of labor intensive industry around the world.

          So your point about industry moving out and leaving an economy in shambles, is, I expect, only valid in a situation where civil unrest precipitates the industry having to leave. Otherwise, there is no reason for the industry to leave, except the failure of that industry economically, and in that case it isnt going elsewhere, it is just contracting.

          As to “inhuman shifts”…lol… in the third world such is common, its normal daily life and for almost no pay. In rural mexico I once observed a fellow trudging up a road, carrying a huge load of sticks. He had no shoes, and his clothes were old and patched. He had gone to a forest to cut the sticks and was carrying them to town, where he would sell them for probably enough money to feed his family. He might do that every day.

          In rural Guatemala, I gave a ride to a guy walking along with an herbicide sprayer tank on his back. It was almost dusk and he still had miles to go and 3000 ft to climb to get home. He sprayed herbicide for a farm. So he walked a couple hours to work every day, and a couple hours back. For that he was paid something like $1.50 (for the day, not by hour). And down there, there are no regulations about toxic herbicides. What he was spraying might kill him in a few years.

          Emotionaly scarred and feeling worthless? You are talking about all peasant life in the 3rd world. In Honduras, if someone wrongs you, you can go to the police and condemn them.. Then the police go and arrest them. If they are a lower class than you, they automatically lose in court and stay in jail.

          Americans who havent seen such have no idea how the world runs. A good part of the world is poverty stricken even below the status of the homeless in this country. Bottom line, any industry comes to your country, its a good thing. It may not turn out well, if the industry fails, or is driven out by civil unrest, but you are not worse off afterward. Just back where you were before. And if it doesnt fail, it can be the road to better living, as shown by Japan, Korea, Malaya, Tiawan, etc…

          • JackBeav says:
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            “See most of Africa. In that case, it is probably the civil unrest that keeps foreign investment out.”

            Civil unrest is due to a vicious circle of profit-takers playing colonization games. The simplest form of colonization is to pit a minority against the majority of the population by empowering them. Newly found power in the hands of the minority makes for some hard feelings coming to the surface. But power is power, and the majority bows to it for a time. Then they discover that they have numbers on their side, and other companies, industries, countries, religious factions or just plain old gunrunners have an interest in supplying the majority.

            All the while, the colonizing companies and their protectorate police forces squeeze the resources out of the region. But these regions are just like indentured servants themselves. They borrow from “world banks” or other countries, and they rack up debt in order to maintain power factions.

            Look up vulture funds if you want to read about something so absolutely disgusting you will never ever see your country in the same light again. Look up Pat Robertsson’s blood diamond activities if you want to know what he does with all the tax free money his infomercial known as the 700 Club brings in.

            Something is seriously wrong with the fat, lazy, ignorant people of this country if they think they aren’t paying for these things indirectly.

          • rsteve503 rsteve503 says:
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            You are talking about a different form of foreign investment from labor intensive manufacturing. Removing resources can be seen as robbing the country of said resources, without doing them any good. But the fact is, the mining jobs can be good ones. I visited the Minas Raura in Peru. The jobs were far better than nothing. ANY foreign involvement starts lifting the population out of abject poverty. What other way is there to better the standard of living?

            However, I dont see such things continuing. Right now, we at least put some money into the countries we get cheap labor and resources from. But the population of the world continues to increase, and the resources needed to support our high technology lifestyle become scarcer. Moreover, other parts of the world gain in standard of living and want more of that technological life style for themselves.

            The simple truth is, the world cant support everyone driving a car, and having a computer, and a tv, and….etc etc. There are not enough resources to go around. There will come a time, I predict, when we will stop paying for anything, but will go back to the colonial days, and use our military power, to simply go and take what we need. And if our military power isnt sufficient, then whoever is stronger, will be taking what they need and we will slip into being lower and lower class. And food could easily become one of the resources to be fought over.

            Overpopulation and limited resources will dictate and human consideration, whatever state you think it is in now, will slip away.

          • JackBeav says:
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            And you’re talking about a wholly different industry model in a democracy. Mining in Peru is regulated and the labor is better off because of unions. Yes, the more efficient mining companies are less detrimental to the ecology of the region because of their efficiency. But they are still corporations looking to squeeze profit from every corner, and labor is still treated as a small k commodity by short-sighted economic policies. It seems everyone wants to equate increased consumption with a better standard of living, when that’s not always the case. Simpler, happier lives can be had with nothing and no outside influences.

            The rich seem to understand this concept, but to protect their regional environments and keep outsiders out, they need to build opulent fortresses within those environments. Because they can only equate materialistic values with happiness, security and satisfaction, they fail to understand that more than 90% of the world would have all three without intrusions in their lives.

            If the Southeast Asian manufacturing centers suddenly operated with one-thousandth of the respect for labor that occurs in Peru, it would be a monumental shift in policy which would cause horror and turmoil in the profit-takers’ minds.

      • JackBeav says:
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        Yeah, they don’t raise living conditions at all. Factories go up in countries where we know the overlords suck the lifeblood out of their people because corporations know that they can get indentured labor.

        The US coal and railroad industries were the same in the 19th and early 20th centuries. But they preyed on immigrant minorities (Irish and Chinese) and newly freed slaves for their labor. There’s a reason songs talk about owing a soul to the company store. Labor would get paid shitty wages for tough jobs with shitty conditions, and they would get to use that pay to buy overpriced food, clothing, lodging and the very equipment they needed to use on their jobs. Their paychecks often just paid the company they were working for.

        That’s what was said by the woman interviewed in this article. Her pay is for subsistence. All she has to do is get beaten on Monday to be fed on Tuesday.

        Add to that the corporate movement within agriculture to overtake traditionally small, sustainable farms for uni-crop production, and population shifts from rural to urban in a hurry. That model was established and flourished in the American Midwest with poorly established subsidies and credits. But just like in America, the whole of the population pays those subsidies and credits through diminished qualities, underpopulated rural regions and a stressed urban infrastructure based on 1950’s life.

        In countries where the overlords hoard all profit instead of plowing it into infrastructure, the people have to pay out of pocket to expand the infrastructure. That’s why Malaysia, Myanmar and Nigeria have burgeoning urban centers where water is displaced by trash in order to create landfill where families can build their homes.

        And water being a necessary resource for any industry should give you some insight as to how pleasant living in a shanty on a trash heap next to waste water doesn’t really signal to me a booming economy.

  • rsteve503 rsteve503 says:
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    What a topic….How did we get here….oh, yeah, Nike sweatshops in the third world.

    Well, I dont agree that is a bad thing, but sometimes it is. Certainly the peasants of the world often get locked into “jobs” where they are basically indentured and can barely live while the rich get the benefit of their labor. Our country started with such a system in place, and then black slavery was in place for a long time as well.

    I have a feeling there is no way to really limit population with policy. Doing what Stalin or Hitler did, and purging unwanted segments of your population can be.

    I suspect that there could easily be famine wars. All it takes is a poor year in the major food producing areas of the world, which are relatively few.

    The US is in an enviable position in the world, so whatever happens, we are less likely to be affected than other major powers. We are on a continent by ourselfves, in essence, with no dedicated enemies on our borders. No other power can say that. We have a lot of natural resources and a big food producing area. Our cheap labor source are hispanic immigrants, while for Europe and Maybe Russia, they are muslims who are potential enemies.

    I still predict that at some point in the distant future we will enclave ourselves and only go out to take by force, resources we need. China might become a huge drain on resources. I trust we are putting satellite weapons in place for such future scenarios. One thing is a constant, thru history. As humans, we like to kill each other.

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