06.Apr.2017 Men’s Basketball Article

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This from a “disgruntled fan”, who I have known for some time, speak with on Twitter, and respect their opinion and ability to assess a situation. This fan attends the practices, etc, so their opinion is based off firsthand observation. Here is their account of what’s going on. It’s long, but it’s a good read. Enjoy.

Hi Angry,

I’ve been an OSU men’s basketball fan for nearly 30 years and like many fans, I always feel optimistic when there’s a new hire.  Wayne Tinkle was no different.  I watched his teams at Montana play on TV and in person when they played at OSU during the 2011-12 season and was impressed with their toughness and their unwillingness to cave in when things weren’t going well.  He is a very hands-on coach and that can be a good thing, but this year things seemed different.I don’t know if it was the off-season flirtation with the Stanford job or the losses of GP II and the other seniors that provided that grinder mentality and leadership that they obviously missed this year, but the team did not really seem to get the full picture of what was expected of them nor did it seem like Tinkle and his staff were able to “coach” these guys up like he did in the past.  I’m hoping that I’m wrong and that Coach Tinkle will be very successful and that this season was a blip on the radar.

I’m not a coach and I did not play college basketball, but coming from a family of coaches and basketball referees, I’ve met plenty of college coaches and sat in on a few practices during the Tinkle era.  Anyone can watch a practice if they clear it with Kurt Paulson who is the director of operations at OSU by calling ahead and getting on a list.  One thing that I notice with most coaches is that they have a system and they recruit players to fit that system.

For example, both Ralph Miller and Jerry Tarkanian liked to wear their opponents down with solid pressure defense and with Tinkle I just don’t see that.  His first year relied on grinding it out, slowing the pace, and playing solid defense, but he had better defenders then.  Last year, they increased tempo and had a decent defense, but there was less pressure than before and it felt like they didn’t know how to rebound.  This year the defense seemed porous and players just were not quick enough to defend or were not interested in defense.  Most of his players now are just not and will not be good defensive players unless they work at it with better conditioning and player development, meaning more time watching film, studying defensive concepts and vocabulary, and working to become a better all-around player.

Right now, the best one seems to be Eubanks with his ability to block shots.  Tres is coming along, but until he can play a full season, I can’t say he’s a good defensive player.  I’m confused as to what Tinkle wants to accomplish and have been since last year.  Is he trying to out score the opponent or does he want to try and dish it inside like he had his teams do at Montana when they had guys like Brian Qvale?  Some of his players like McLaughlin and Stephen Thompson Jr. would thrive in a defensive-minded program as they have the quickness it takes to get turnovers and turn them into points.  Right now, Tinkle lacks quick players to do that.  Too many open looks, especially on the perimeter, hurt this year.  The players seemed to lose their man too often and maybe that’s youth, but it seems like there is a lack of good conditioning and footspeed on this team.

As for post players, Eubanks has the potential to be really really good, but he needs to be able to expand his game beyond slam dunks and hook shots.  The game has evolved to the point that even big men need to have a consistent mid range jumper or the ability to shoot the occasional three-point shot.  If he can get a decent range, it will make it tougher for opponents and will make him more valuable to pro teams.  If he has a chance to go pro (and it won’t be this year), he needs to work on his game much more than going to a camp in Vegas.

GP II didn’t have a great offensive game, but the majority of his points came off of turnovers because he had the quickness, long arms, and the awareness necessary to become an all-around good defensive player.  I’m not saying the staff should go out and find the next GP, but they need to go out and find players with the same type of instincts he had.  Another thing I liked about GP II was his ability to control the offense.  He could turn it over, as all players do, but he played with discipline.

Even last year, the team played carelessly with the ball.  I had hoped to see some improvement, but with the injuries, that didn’t seem to happen.  Even in practice, the coaches didn’t try and correct the endless dribbling or the careless passes.  One would think practice would be the best time to correct things, not just in actual games.

In the practices I attended, there wasn’t bad coaching, but more along the lines of over coaching or lack of clarity.  Players were instructed on doing certain things for instance, but there was never a reason as to why they were doing them.  I remember Tinkle having to instruct Stacy a few times during practice as to go in for a rebound and be sure to block out, but he didn’t mention as to why.  Another example is when Rakocevic was asked to set a screen, but after he set the screen, he failed to pop out on the left side of the key.  Tinkle didn’t remind him why he needed to be out there, which was to be an option for the guard to pass the ball so Rackocevic had a chance to drive in for a basket.  I could tell he was confused, but nothing was done to help that.  I don’t know what quality of coaching these players had before OSU, but a coach is a teacher and they have to teach.  Good coaches give a why as to how things are done and why they work. Tinkle and his staff didn’t  do that and I think that the lack of clarity was part of the problem with the team’s development in addition to injuries.  Perfection occurs when you practice the same thing over consistently and by not explaining how or why something is done, you can never successfully execute to perfection.

A major problem was a lack of chemistry among the players.  In previous years, it wasn’t uncommon for Reid, Morris-Walker, or GP II to help explain concepts or have an quick impromptu meeting on the sidelines or half-court with the rest of the team to encourage or remind the players of what they needed to do to get to the end goal.  Kone seems like a great candidate to be that vocal leader as he is energetic and outgoing.  I think he will do well once that knee heals up.  I don’t know if this was due to youth and inexperience or if this will continue to be a problem, but I hope that the veterans can click with the newcomers soon.

The last thing I want to touch on is recruiting.  I don’t understand how Tinkle keeps missing on players.  Two years ago, he lost Chris Boucher to Oregon.  Last year, he lost the JC kid that went to Utah, Carlos Johnson, who went to Washington, and Bigby-Williams who went to Oregon.  This year, he has whiffed on three JC guys already and I’m hoping he will get the kid from Connecticut.  He only seems to close on guys who are coaches kids or former CR commits (McLaughlin).  He did get Eubanks and Kone and I’m excited about Jack Wilson, but it’s alarming that he’s lost some of his recruits (Bruce), may lose Eubanks, and he can’t find anyone to replace them.

Losing Duvivier hurt, but he was not a true point guard and neither are the Thompsons or McLaughlin.  They don’t have a designated point guard and can’t find one.  I’m disappointed as I thought having Kerry Rupp and Gregg Gottlieb would help shore up recruiting, but it seems like that has declined under Tinkle.  At least Craig Robinson could recruit.  I would like to know how well the coaches are selling the program as it seems that Rueck, Andersen, and Casey seem to sell their programs well.  One thing I notice is the players they are getting are from the west, primarily California.  Robinson got players from Texas (Moreland), California, and New Jersey (Collier and Cooke), plus his staff plucked Brandt from Chicago via Australia.

Again, I wish Tinkle the best, but I have concerns with his development of players and ability to recruit in the Pac-12.  I hope to hear positive news soon on some recruits, but I’m not holding my breath.

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  • whiskey soaked napkins whiskey soaked napkins says:
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    “The last thing I want to touch on is recruiting. I don’t understand how Tinkle keeps missing on players. Two years ago, he lost Chris Boucher to Oregon. Last year, he lost the JC kid that went to Utah, Carlos Johnson, who went to Washington, and Bigby-Williams who went to Oregon. This year, he has whiffed on three JC guys already and I’m hoping he will get the kid from Connecticut.”

    Lost high profile JC guys to programs that are higher profile and been to more NCAA tournaments in the last 10 years than OSU has in probably close to the last 30 years? Really?
    And this individual is surprised by this?

    • helmsley says:
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      I understand that players – especially JC players who have only 2 years @ Division I – wouldn’t want to take their chances at OSU. However, wbb was lower than low when Rueck came aboard and he convinced recruits to join up.

      • Jack Jack says:
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        He had an open slate. There was work to do. But he had it easy with the offer of immediate playing time for all. That’s really hard for an athlete to turn down, despite knowing there will be some growing pains that first year.

        He would have had a much more difficult time recruiting if his roster was already filled with misled, mistreated and disgruntled players.

  • Nicebeaver Nicebeaver says:
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    I wonder if having Tres go done to injury a 2nd(3rd) year in a row has squashed WTs passion a little this year. I’m still chalking this year up to mostly the result of injuries, although this wasn’t a team that was tournament bound anyway, even with perfect health. We did pick up Reichle and that 4* post whose name escapes me this year, in addition to the 2nd Thompson kid, so recruiting has been positive for this class. Sounds like we may pick up another big piece tomorrow also.
    Appreciate the write up. Always good to get a new perspective on hoops as i dont really follow it all that closely.

    • angry angry says:
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      I still believe in Tinkle for some reason. Mostly that he won at Montana and seemed solid. Hearing he has no clarity during practice the big take away for me. What I saw at Montana and year 1 and 2 are conflicting with what I saw year 3 and this article.

      Also, I can’t get over that he played walk-ons year 1. I get why, but it’s such a Riley thing to do, and coupled with this lack of clarity it reminds me of Riley. I think he has some in him, which is not good. The recruiting misses make me question is scouting. I don’t know what to make of the situation or how long a leash to give the guy.

      • mckalk mckalk says:
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        I’m hoping Tinkle is not another in the long line of five or six year Beaver coaches since Miller retired who were never able to build year to year consistency. I think next year is going to be crucial for him to prove he has a system that can be successful and that he can recruit and develop players who can compete in all aspects of the game at the P-12 level.

        A lot of small things bothered me about WT this year that didn’t in the past……poor recruiting, interviewing with Stanford, awful fundamentals from his players, how he framed the Eubanks draft declaration compared to the information that came out the next day, the Duvivier thing (what does “healthy enough” to play now mean, had Malcolm been injured?) to name a few. I think you have to throw this season in the dumpster, but next year is already going to be season 4 (hard to believe) and he has much to prove. I doubt he’s a hot coaching commodity anymore either.

        Lastly, in WT’s defense, I think we do have to ask how many games this team wins with a healthy Tres and STjr for the entire season. Are they a .500 team? I think all coaches should get one “get out of jail” free card for injuries. Tinkle has used his.

        • blackbug says:
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          Basically nobody knows, but I would guess the healthy statement has to do with how Malcolm is doing mentally. We know he left for personal reasons and it could be a good guess that things were happening in his life that were difficult to handle. That is the type of health Tinkle may be talking about.

          • mckalk mckalk says:
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            Malcolm is certainly mentally healthy enough to realize he doesn’t want to play for Tinkle any longer.

  • osu2008 says:
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    Is Nemec’s news coming tomorrow or is it about Jack Wilson because I thought that was the big news. I think Nemec is just trying to get click bait.

    • Nicebeaver Nicebeaver says:
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      I asked him on facebook and he replied that part 1 was the Wilaon news, but part 2 is taking longer than he thought, so maybe tomorrow. Still vague.
      Alexis Yetna was a player I’ve been watching for a commitment from, but there could also be another player they’re involved with.
      Hope we find out sooner rather than later.

      • Nicebeaver Nicebeaver says:
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        Originally he said there were 3 parts to his good news for the beavers actually.

        • Jack Jack says:
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          Think… kid from Connecticut… transfer type who would be big time… hmmm?

          I’d also take Noah Blackwell if we’re into stocking up for 2018-19.

          • Nicebeaver Nicebeaver says:
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            Like i said, dont follow hoops much, but i see several guys(Steven Enoch, Vance Jackson, Juwan Durham), who are leaving UConn, plus a 4* PG recruit(Makai Ashton-Langford)who has asked to be released from his LOI with the Huskies

            Of those, Jackson appears to be the guy most likely to move out west, plus he knows Aidan Willard.

            So……we’re getting Vance Jackson? Maybe? Although the longer we hear nothing, the more time he has to realize there are other options…

          • Jack Jack says:
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            Jackson has a great relationship with Stevie the Elder. And now he wants to move closer to home, as does Durham (Florida).

            The problem is… Jackson’s best friend is Tyler Dorsey.

            So I posit that after his transfer year on the bench you will:
            A: see him play Pac 12 hoops.
            B: probably see him playing in the state of Oregon a lot.

            There’s also that UCLA place, if they’re inclined.

  • osu2008 says:
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    I hope so too. Yetna got an offer from St Johns but that program is in worse shape than OSU. Hope Ewing at Georgetown works better than Chris Mullen has at St Johns.

    • Jack Jack says:
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      Ewing has begun his tenure by publicly calling on Allen Iverson (Hoya booster) to help with the recruiting of a publicly named PSA.

      That situation looks like it will work itself out nicely.

  • Malcolm Duda Vi says:
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    Talk shit that’s fine you’ll be seeing me as a starting PG in the NBA in 2 years. This guy didn’t watch practice but OK I agree Tinkle isn’t the best coach he never encouraged me to take over games with my scoring which could have been easy with a green light.

    • beavergopher beavergopher says:
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      No great revelations in the post. It was obvious the team was lacking an upperclassman leader, so MD leaving is a hit. Can the coaches’ sons fill that role? It creates an interesting dynamic. Are they viewed as spies for the coaching staff like the political officers in the Soviet military? Teacher’s pets?
      WT needs a ball handler. If that is not addressed going into next year, it will be another long year.

  • beavergopher beavergopher says:
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    It’s hard to truly judge his coaching without being able to see how sweaty his pits got, because of the new camera angle.

    • osu2008 says:
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      At this rate, I expect Fox or some other low-brow network to offer the Balls their own reality show.

      • Nicebeaver Nicebeaver says:
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        While I dont really care at all about the Ball family drama, I do like that theyre pushing the NCAA when it comes to apparel merchandising. The dad made a brand of clothes called “Big Baller Brand” which really is just “Ball, Ball, Ball” and he’s using his boys to promote their own brand by wearing the clothes at games and on instagram, etc. The NCAA doesnt like it because players cant promote their own products, so Lonzo wasnt allowed to say “buy my clothes” whole playing for UCLA, but he could still wear it. But now Adidas and Under Armor are taking issue because they are the apparel providers for UCLA, so it just becomes a big mess because the apparel giants are basically getting to dictate the rules about what a kid can and cant wear, even though it’s his own brand. I’d imaging it only gets worse as the other 2 kids grt through UCLA. Either way, i like that he’s challenging the ncaa rules in this regard. Everything else about him i just ignore.

        http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-ball-brothers-business-20170322-story.html

      • Jack Jack says:
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        It looks like something the History Channel could run with. All he has to do is blame the Masons.

  • beavergopher beavergopher says:
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    https://pbs.twimg.com/tweet_video_thumb/C80ra_qXYAQfxhL.jpg

  • 03beav says:
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    I think WT is good not great. I don’t ever see him winning 25-30 games. Yes I know he won 25 twice, but that wasn’t in the P12.
    It will be difficult to accurately judge the recruiting with the coach’s kids in the mix early on.
    Those who have left, D Bruce, Malcom D, and those who have just been so-so Ben Kone, Manuel, Stacy … most of the rest of the non-family mix is really weak.
    Except for Jaquori / Eubanks – they seem to be more P12 / tourney type players. GP2 of course was that too.

  • Bill says:
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    What a let down of a post

  • 03beav says:
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    The Stanford job thing makes me think that we paid Standsbury 600k to take some photos
    and wait for GTech to open up. Why the f did WT and Pat Casey of all ppl have to go interview
    to get their extensions?

  • Hellobeavers says:
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    Is this the post that was supposed to have some sort of insider information? It’s a featured opinion on the site, and its value is questionable.

    For example, I assume a college basketball player already understands why he’s supposed to box out after a shot goes up.

    • Beavlover69 says:
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      Exactly my thoughts. It’s D-1 not JV

    • angry angry says:
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      I assume a college basketball player already understands why he’s supposed to box out after a shot goes up.

      You know what they say about assumptions.
      If they knew why, maybe they’d do it instead of standing around.

      • mckalk mckalk says:
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        I assumed this season’s basketball team would not lose 27 games.

  • blackbug says:
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    If you do a review of recruiting rankings comparing Tinkle with Robinson he wins hands down even if you remove the 3 family connection recruits. Tinkle has more top 100 recruits (even without family connections), more 4 star recruits (even without family connections), Tinkle’s ranking per recruit is 3.4 stars to 3 stars for Robinson (even without family connections). I actually agree that Robinson was a good recruiter, but I think we are missing the main issues from this year when we talk about recruiting. Which is why I agree with pretty much everything else in the write up.

    The main issue is no upperclassmen leadership. This was actually caused more by Robinson missing on his last 2 classes (although Tinkle did close out the last of these 2 classes, with not much options). There are no players on the current roster from these 2 classes except for N’Diaye. This was a big hole that was extremely difficult to fill. The explanations are a lot when you look more in depth. 5-6 had health issues affecting this year is some way. Personal issues of 4-5 players affected this year is some way. There were other problems. A lot of these problems happened quite a while ago, but they are connected to this year causing no upperclassmen leadership.

    I see Stacy as the only real miss so in recruiting by Tinkle. Dew was not a miss talent wise, but was a miss character and academic wise. The same could be said of Bruce as Dew. Dew did not play enough here to prove anything, but showed he could play some at other locations.

    • angry angry says:
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      I view their recruiting as about the same. Some big names that never really live up to the hype. Tinkle seems to have completely whiffed on more guys, but that could be because I’m not over the Dew/Stacy debacle. Rakocevic is pretty weak, too. I’d have to have a list of all players in front of me to be sure.

    • 03beav says:
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      @blackbug is there any comparative data around the recruiting of CR and WT? I would of thought that without the sons CR would of had a better resume.
      But then again, I think CR had his own advantage with the lucky timing of his bro-in-law as many of those recruits talked about being mesmerized by the presidential connection, seeing their potential coach standing behind the president in an orange tie.

      • WFO WFO says:
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        It’s Bush’s fault and you’re a racist!

        • Jack Jack says:
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          Fuck idiot boy. The GOP is just flat out racist.
          http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/07/politics/kfile-top-republicans-syria-trump/

          EVERYTHING Trump whined about Hillary and Obama… he has done in spades. But the GOP was too busy doing nothing and making sure nobody could get anything done in order to show how ineffectual a black person is at governing.

          History will not treat the GOP well. On top of being stupid and corrupt, they’re hypocrites.
          http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/04/syria-donald-trump-tweets-170407041106339.html

          It’s all theater, and Dickhead Donald, the Dumbfuck Dunderhead, decides to bomb an airstrip that was back up and running within hours.

          Nice one, Dickhead Donald, the Dumbfuck Dunderhead. Who knew foreign policy was so complicated?

          • cj cj says:
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            Dickhead Donald ranted on by Jerkoff Jack!

            Good boy…

          • Jack Jack says:
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            That’s not a rant. That’s a couple bullet points with sourcing. Dickhead Donald, the Dumbfuck Dunderhead, doesn’t deserve any more rants. His actions and words are what they are, and anyone who wants to try to explain them all away as “plain talk” and “Bumfuck Egypt values”… or that this Wall Street crony/puppet is anti-establishment in any way… is either as corrupt or as stupid as he is.

          • cj cj says:
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            Whatever

          • Jack Jack says:
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            Whatever indeed, sucker.

      • blackbug says:
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        Tinkle has recruited 16 players here thus far. The 3 related recruits makes very little difference in the statistics when you realize it represents less than fifth of the total recruits. There are a lot of ways to measure this and compare. The following are a few. Even though the 2017 class is not finished in recruiting I used it in comparison.

        The 247sports average ranking for each recruit under Tinkle is 0.8923 and under Robinson it was 0.8582. The ranking of each class for Tinkle has averaged 37th and for Robinson 74th. Tinkle has more 4 star recruits in less years even if you subtract relation recruits. Tinkle has more top 100 recruits even if you subtract out family. The average is 3.2 stars for Tinkle on 247sports and 2.5 for Robinson. As I stated earlier others have it closer to 3.5 and 3. In the past I thought 1 key indicator would be that Robinson average more recruits per class as this team this past year really suffered from depth issues, but Tinkle is even slightly ahead in recruits per class. Now the big question is busts in recruiting. This one is difficult to measure in an unbiased way. I did the best I could and found that they both average about 1.5 busts per class. I used criteria such as suspensions, academic ineligibility, never setting foot on campus, sitting the bench, and transferring in increments of 1 or a 0.5 depending on how much contribution before and after problems.

        Let me repeat I liked Robinson as a recruiter. I think Robinson did some great things in improving the quality of athletes on the team. I just think we are barking up the wrong tree if we think recruiting caused the issues of this past year, unless you want to point to Robinson’s last 2 classes which provided very little after Payton. There is a giant hole of upperclassmen leadership as Payton came is as an upperclassman and N’Diaye and Duvivier were the only ones this year. All the others had no experience with the team. Think about that there was not a single upperclassmen that had been developed in the program after Duvivier left and N’Diaye was injured!

        • blackbug says:
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          Sum up I only use Robinson recruiting compared to Tinkle recruiting to show that Tinkle is doing a good job in recruiting as Robinson did as well. I think any deficiencies are elsewhere.

  • Angry@angry says:
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    Angry I was actually hoping your “insider” as you stated would have something for the fans… he’s a fan. A disgruntled one at that. Going to practice means absolutely nothing as far as having “insider” information. There’s so many things in his write up that poke holes in his credibility. Thanks for the total letdown.

    On a side note, when I was a kid I used to go to Seahawks training camps in Cheney… so if you want some info, I am an insider close to the team

    • angry angry says:
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      I never said the person is an insider, you moron. There you go again, getting involved with nuance. Original statement:

      This weekend, expect a write-up from an avid basketball fan who posts here and attends practice. It’s regarding Tinkle this past year. From our talks, what she’s reported to me is not good. e.g. lack of team chemistry and lack of coaching during practice to name two.

      That’s exactly what I delivered. Not surprising your brain distorted that into something else.

    • angry angry says:
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      Just to preempt this, because you know it’s going to happen: everyone watch as a@a repeatedly says I said “insider”.

      What a total dope.

      • Nicebeaver Nicebeaver says:
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        He also calls the person “he”, when you clearly wrote “she”

        Details apparently aren’t important…

        • Angry@angry says:
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          Nicebeaver, you’d consider that write up informational? Or worthy of its own post?

          • Nicebeaver Nicebeaver says:
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            When you run a site, you get to pick and choose what constitutes a new post.
            If you don’t find it informational, don’t read it and spend your time and money in the blitz or sedge forums.
            If a fan takes the time to write up their assessment of OSU athletic programs, I’ll usually take a few minutes to read what they have to say, so yes, I do find it informational.

          • Angry@angry says:
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            That’s cool. Sure, she’s a fan, took time to write it. Good for her.

        • angry angry says:
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          He’s not good with nuances. And now ’til the end of time we’ll hear about how I promised a basketball insider. Because, well, that’s just how is brain works (unfortunately, for the rest of society).

      • Angry@angry says:
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        Someone else referred to them as an insider, and someone else referred to them as a source. my bad. I didn’t know you’d tease a write up from some disgruntled fan who’s been to a few practices. But I’m the dope

    • Hellobeavers says:
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      The blazers played an exhibition game in my hometown once. I watched it. So I can provide some insider info from that perspective. The two of us should combine our knowledge and start a blog!

  • angry angry says:
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    Anyway, I think the opinion of someone who’s followed basketball 30 years and watched practice this past year is interesting and worthy of a post. When Silverstream wrote posts about the football team, everyone loved it. Anyone who is knowledgeable, attends practice, and wants to share what they see is always welcome to write an article for this site.

    If you disagree, don’t like free content from firsthand observers, etc etc it’s a you problem. Look in the mirror before complaining.

    • Beavlover69 says:
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      Haha there it is again. “Let’s have a discussion! Just remember one important rule: you can’t disagree.”

      You say Bill may be the most miserable person here (he certainly is grumpy) but you can lay claim to the most sensitive.

      Of course I love free content, but this coulda been posted in the comments of your previous thread about the basketball team. It’s the exact same take with no new info.

  • mckalk mckalk says:
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    Was there ever any update on Nemec’s big suprise(s)? His Facebook page is a vanilla non-event and I could give two shits that Jack Wilson scrimmaged with Team USA. Please don’t get injured (that would be Luck O’ the Beavs).

    BTW, I think I was the one who used the phrase “insider”. Hell, if you’re in there watching a practice that’s an insider to me. Lighten up, this stuff is fun from all angles.

    • Nicebeaver Nicebeaver says:
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      Never saw an update, and I agree, nothing good can come from Wilson working out with team USA. Could get injured, or worse yet, he’ll be on the radar of every other team now and we’ll habe to fight like hell to fend off the Dana Altman’s of the world

      • RanYakumo RanYakumo says:
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        Probably won’t be good for us, but it’ll certainly be good for him. Always great to test your skills against the best of the best.

        Tinkle better be ready to fight for him regardless, guy is a stud.

        • Beavlover69 says:
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          Tinkle should be able to hang on to him on the simple fact that Eubanks is all but guaranteed to leave after next year (if he even stays that long), leaving a wide open spot for immediate playing time. Not losing 20 games would surely help as well

      • Beavlover69 says:
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        Now you’re thinking like a Beav fan! #luckOtheBeavs

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