Home Football WSU Final Thoughts & Civil War Game Week

WSU Final Thoughts & Civil War Game Week

356

There’s a lot I’d like to write about last game, but I just don’t have the time right now.

In short, you all know I disagree with the call by now. I did before the call, so it’s not Monday morning quarterbacking. In the game thread I said (and another commented said shortly after) having Luton try to get the D offsides then punting was the call. Good mix of aggressive and conservative.

That game felt like if you punt there you win. You can’t be so afraid of conventional football that you overthink yourself out of a win. There also has to be a point where you don’t fear the opponent. Everyone thinks going for it means Smith is aggressive and going for the win, but in reality it means he feared WSU. At some point you just have to punt and tip your cap to WSU if they go the full 80 yards in a minute. What’s wrong with that? It’s not Riley-esque. It’s just smart.

The other issue was the clock. I missed it, but apparently Luton was snapping the ball with 13 to 15 seconds on the clock. How is this an issue at this point in the season? And is that on Smith or Luton? I’ve seen it in earlier games. Seems it should be coached out of the QB if it is the QB. Disturbing.

I still like Smith, but this is going to get old fast if it’s degenerate gambler move one after another. I don’t think aggressive for the sake of it is somehow cooler than lame-ass Riley curling into a ball. Both are terrible for different reasons. Why is it so difficult to have in-game feel and play the odds?

Anyway, go Beavs. Ducks should be -14.5 favorites, so the line is steep again. Ducks are fast on D but not technically very good. They make up for that with speed. Johnson and Verdell are matchup nightmares. If we get the A+ Beavs and the B- Ducks we get a win. Anything short of that we’re done.

Go Beavs.

356 COMMENTS

  1. Lets watch the injury/player availability situation during the week.
    —If Hamilcar’s hand is actually broken, as reported, will he get enough “one handed” practice to be a factor?
    —Will Bradford being in as an additional target take coverage off of Hodgins?
    —Will the duk first string center return to action?
    —What’s the status of duk receiving corps?……they had one go down for the second half vs ASU
    —Any I missed?

      • 1
        3

        The ducks are already thinking about the pac12 championship game. This game means almost zero to them, other then bragging rights. They win the pac12 they go to the rose bowl they lose and it’s the Alamo.

        • I remember, was it last year when Herbert was injured in the civil war and they just ran the ball all second half with the Beavs not stopping them at all. I am fearful that will be the formula again. We might score more points to keep it close but their d-line will rattle Luton. Smith and co better come up with some plan a’s, b’s, and c’s for moving the ball. The oregon d isn’t as good as I thought it would be. They have allowed high point totals against good offenses. The teams they really shut down have been Cal, tree, and colorado (how did the huskies lose to them…)

  2. 6
    1

    I don’t mind aggression but it’s gotta be done right, AND PLANNED. They should have had a play dialed up before 4th down, before the timeout, with more time runoff the clock, with attempt to get offsides, blah blah, like others have already mentioned. So the final play failed and let’s move on….
    But even bigger issue is the ongoing clock management nightmare. It has been the elephant in the stadium for several games now, I’m too lazy to get into the details, but in general when you have a defense that just plain isn’t good, wouldn’t part of the overall plan be to keep them off the field as much as possible? I see quick scores late in games when the Beavs really need to take a knee inside the 15 — I saw Todd Gurley of the Rams do this last year and was absolutely amazed that he took a knee instead of go for the glory and possibly keep the game open for a loss. I know this isn’t the NFL, but goddamn I couldn’t help but wish Jefferson take a knee at the ten yard line. Seemed like the worst that would have happened is Beavs only get a field goal making it 49-42, WSU scores making it 49-49 and the Beavs would have had the last possession with all timeouts. This happened at Stanford too, Beavs scores way too fast and left clock on the board. Seems like every game I’m yelling for the coaches to milk the clock. Coaches need to fix this, or at least recognize the defense is shit and every second they have to defend could be a game changer. Clock management is what separates the chimps from the champs. Just a drunken observation from watching 37+ years of football. What the fuck do I know….!!!

  3. Line I saw was 21, which seems high, agree 14.5 or even up to 17 seems more reasonable.

    Ducks motivation will be keeping Beavers out of a bowl game and that will be sufficient motivation for them. Their RB is the most concern to me, both quick and fast, and the Ducks should just decide to run the ball down OSU’s throat.

    I don’t see the Beavers being intimidated or caught up in the pressure, but I won’t be surprised if Smith makes at least two bonehead moves in the name of aggressiveness.

    Play straight up football, don’t get too cute, and manage the clock. Then Mario will make a mistake.

    In the PAC championship game Utah will control Oregon, and Oregon will likely end up in Alamo.

    • Im not convinced Utah is better than Oregon based on what ive seen from both teams.

      The best either team can probably do is Pasadena. Oregon for sure. I just dont see Utah getting into the CFP should they win out.

      Beavergopher, dont give up on your golden rodents not getting to the rose bowl. They beat Wisconsin this weekend and i believe they will get the nod even after they lose to tOSU in the B1G title game. Everyone else will have at least 3 losses and they’d be B1G west division champs.

      • I hope Utah blasts them but yeah not sure how good Utah is either. They seem to dominate the bad teams pretty well. It’s pretty pathetic the wins both utah and oregon have. You could make an argument neither should have been ranked top 12 based on beating no one so far. I wouldn’t be shocked to see a two loss SEC team (one that has played tough teams, not Alabama’s schedule) be ranked ahead of any pac-12 to end the year.

        • 1
          1

          The Pac is a joke again. Two pretty good teams and a plethora of 5-7 win mediocre teams.

          Expect another shitty win/loss record come bowl season.

    • I didn’t read the article but do know his wife wants him to sit out the rest of the year. I think that would be the smart move. I’d support retirement if he were to hang em up.

  4. I’m wondering if the +1 point victory over ASU followed by -1 loss to WSU will impact the the team this week? Watching them play it looks like there’s no quit in them, and hopefully they don’t come out flat. Playing for CW and potential bowl game, you’d think they’d be both prepared and hyped.

    • Who would have thought we’d be crying about losing a game by one point on the road to the Cougs with bowl implications….??? Anybody???? This team has been great on the road, hopefully that translates to the Civil War — albeit the defense needs a ton of help still, but they pretty much got as many turnovers as they could’ve possibly gotten to keep the game in reach. Hopefully more of the same against the Phiting Phil’s?

    • They haven’t quit under Smith yet. Utah is closest but idk of it’s quiting when you have been beaten like a punching bag for acouple hours.

      • That’s the teams identity right now, Don’t Quit but Take “Aggressive” Chances.

        So much better than bikey’s “looking for an identity”

        Gonna be fun to see how that changes (improves) over the next two years.

        • This is exactly right OOBie. How many years did we moan about a coach who spent a whole season pondering his team’s identity, and now that we have one, people want someone who goes by the book. If. OSU. IS. EVER. going to reach a level of productivity beyond the mediocre, it’s only going to happen with a coach who is a renegade of sorts who busts the format. It is truly astonishing to read comments on this blog from people who routinely viscerated BDC and Riley for aiming for six win seasons and now bemoan a coach who doesn’t play it safe.

  5. Regarding WSU, if you had told me that we’d hang 53 points on them, I would have thought for sure that would be a win. But the WSU air raid is/was really efficient against us and hard to stop. Even if that 4th down call was bad, let’s give the team some credit because they didn’t fold. They played until the very end. And I’m not sure that would have been the case at the start of the season. I was sour on Tibs earlier this season, but I’m starting to see what he wants to do on D and I like it. We just need the personnel.

    As for the civil war, I think this one comes down to who has the better O-lines and D-lines. I would love nothing more than to destroy those a-holes in their own stadium, but I don’t think this is the year for it. I can see them following the same plan as Utah and Washington, just sending a lot of pressure at our O-line and watch us go 3-and-out. If the defense can get some stops, I think we have a chance in this game, but it’s going to be about consistency on both sides of the ball for the beavers. AKA, they need to play lights out the entire game.

    The one thing we have going for us is that we are still playing for a bowl game. Since the loss to ASU, not sure what Oregon has invested in this game, other than moving on to the pac-12 championship?

    42-24, *ucks. Go Beavs!

    • 3
      1

      Probaby a little low. Point spread of 21 is about right. Oregon is the better team in every statistical category. Passing offense. Passing defense. Rushing offense. Rushing defense. Turnover margin per game. All ducks. 5 wins is a nice improvement but facing a better team on the road in a rivalry game will not end well. Smith fired his 6th and final shot from the revolver last Saturday night in Pullman. And barely missed.

      48-17 Ducks and another long December.

  6. 6
    1

    Im still butthurt and pissed off at Smith for not punting.

    Had they done so and still lost I’d tip my cap to Wazzu. 11 point lead with 4:17 left and you lose? That’s a major fuck up.

    • 7
      11

      I’m still mad Smith went for an onside kick and it worked. Had Wazzu recovered they would have scored really fast again and been up by two scores. It’s so frustrating how aggressive Smith is. When it works, I like the aggressiveness but when it doesn’t work it is a bad idea. Why can’t he be aggressive only when it is going to work. The throw down the sideline to Hodgins where he made the one handed catch was too aggressive. It was a long pass we didn’t need at the time. He made a great catch but I wished he would have dropped it to show how dumb Smith is. I’m exhausted from Saturday night. All of those coaching adjustments I had to make. I wish we had hired Beau Baldwin.

          • Fair, but with the 4th down, you have to factor in the clock and no timeouts being an ally for the beavs if punting.

            IMO the punting vs going for it is a red herring, The real mistake was not bleeding more clock on the last TD drive and not running it up the middle 3 times to try getting that last 1st down.

        • 6
          1

          “We weren’t stopping them and needed to steal a possession.” I rest my case.

          My entire comment was not serious. I’m tired of people picking and choosing when they want aggressive play calls. I also am tired of fans forgetting how bare the cupboard is and what smith is doing with what he has. But if my argument is wrong it’s because I’m attacking a straw man rather than a manly man. There is no guarantee you stop them no matter if it’s 80 yards or 56 yards. Athletes play to the situation so the routes would have been longer, play calling different etc. Some people on here have crystal balls though and that must be an amazing life advantage.

          If we punt and Wazzu scores, the comments would be, “Why did we give them the ball back. We knew they were going to score. Why didn’t we try to go for it on 4th down and keep the ball in our hands. Wazzu has scored on us every possession (okay accept for 1 punt and turnovers) so of course they will score again. And whatever else would be said.

          I doubt anyone says, “Welp, we punted the ball and our defense just couldn’t hold up. Smith made a great decision there. He knew his d was getting dominated and put it in their hands. They will learn from this and be better next year.”

          The good news is Smith doesn’t care if fans are all butt hurt 48 hours later over a sporting event.

          Differing opinions. Still curious what’s over my head. Maybe someone can point it out to me. Go Beavs!

  7. 10

    Someone on here was asking for names to follow in recruiting. Since it’s too cumbersome to put all of that text into a post here, I’ve thrown together a spreadsheet to show a column with current verbal commits as well as potential commits or players who have been, or will be official visitors.
    Orange highlights are for players who I think will be committing to OSU. There are also notes off to the right side if I think a certain piece of information is worth noting.
    I have Charles Moore in there even though he’s technically a member of the 2019 Class. Wanted to show him next to our other DE commits to help display how many new DEs we’re potentially taking. I tend to think having Moore on board is going to make one of the other JC DE commits look elsewhere.
    I’ll try to update this spreadsheet more regularly as we approach signing day and refer to it from time to time as I receive questions here.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xn1RlZ_tPMKhlisch8iqbAvy6Azm0hwxzJKhV_jixGo/edit?usp=sharing

      • We currently have Cooper Darling and Jacob Ferenczi(greyshirt commit from last year who will be class of 2020)
        And the guy from Arizona we just offered recently, Jake Griffin, I think will end up at OSU. He seems to be tight with Cooper Darling.

        As for JC OLinemen or transfers, I haven’t heard much in that regard, but would hope that we have something in the works that will become more apparent closer to signing day. Coach M plays his OL recruiting pretty close to the vest.

  8. 1
    2

    In response to Whisky above….And to think that 4:17 should have been closer to 3:00 or less with better awareness to clock management makes me cringe. When I look at Hawaii, the Beavs scored and left just enough time 2:11 for Hawaii to get a quick score just before halftime with 12 secs left — net point differential is zero, ultimately a loss by 3. At the time we had Choukair as #1 and makes me wonder if the coaches were in the midst of losing confidence in him at that point, so missed opportunity to milk clock, and go with FG, net differential +3 going into halftime, or best case TD with less than a minute. For Stanford the Beavs left 1:55 in the 4th quarter and Stanford won the game with 1 sec left on the clock. These coaches should know by now that anything more than 1:10 is recipe for disaster, the D just can’t stop anybody….maybe Cal? But they were horrible. Of course all of the circumstances with each change in scenario, but I’m convinced with better clock management in previous drives, let the clock run to under 10 sec at the vet least, the game gets shortened, and the ball is taken away from opposing 4+ star talent, ball control, and bingo 2-3 more wins. Can’t keep giving the enemy more chances, especially when they have better talent (at least for this team). These last two games ultimately speak to JS’s showing signs of arrogance and gambling nature (OCD). Gambling activates the brain’s reward system and it is becoming compulsive in nature, seems regardless of the outcome, JS and crew are becoming addicted. If the game is too predictable, too monotonous/redundant, is our coaching staff getting bored and reacting to their compulsions?

    • There’s a time to gamble and a time to be conservative and play to not lose.

      I didn’t agree with either 4th down go for it late game call the last two weeks.

      ASU only needed a FG to win. WSU needed a TD. More egregious error in my opinion. Punt the fucking ball out of bounds deep and make them go 80+ yards in 68 seconds with no timeouts to beat you. If they do? So be it. I wouldnt second guess the decision.

      There was a lot at stake that is now more than likely lost.

    • The defense was shredded. To run Hamilcar out there with one arm was hope, not a strategy. The turnovers were nice, but Gordon made a couple of suspect throws. With the game on the line, he was deadly. Did we know that Wazzu’s o-line was that good? Sack on the second play of the game and nothing after.

      Tibesar did not impress me this time. Sure, Wazzu is good, but they creamed their season averages. They might have won 70-35 without the TO’s. Some online scrib said they were going to pass for 700 yards and I thought he was being an asshole, they damn near did. I hope Smith can recruit more talent on D.

      • Shredded as the D was it took WSU almost ALL of the 68 seconds they had left to score.

        You’re saying give them a longer field and they still score?

        That’s your argument?

        • No, I was pretty clear in my previous comments that Smith outsmarted himself and should have had either Rodriguez or even Luton pooch punt it and hope for the best with a longer field. If Smith was a smart risk-taker, he would have dialed up a short pass play on 2nd and 4 for the win instead of the two unimaginative runs into a D-line that was ready and stacked in the box.

          I’m just saying the D is still pretty shitty overall.

          • agreed. The second and third downs are legitimate grounds for criticism, as is the actual call on the 4th down play, but not the strategic decision to go for it on 4th down.

          • Spot on from both of you guys. The coaching staff clearly didn’t trust the defense in that situation, but why does it take a full game of quick scores to finally realize the D wasn’t going to stop anybody? It should have been recognized during the 2nd quarter that WSU could score in bunches (or even before the game as part of game plan), so when the Beavs did have the lead, it was imperative to shorten the game as much as possible and MAXIMIZE time of possession. This could be done by keeping the ball in bounds, game clock deterioration, and going to a run first-pass second game plan. I can count 5 plays alone in the 4th quarter where an additional 10 secs could have been taken off the clock, that is 40 secs and then take away the 17 secs before that critical timeout, WSU would have had maybe 20 secs to go 80 (assuming Punt). Also, D is a bit more rested (does it matter), and can look like the hero, instead of the scapegoat. All these little bits add up, and is reason why JS staff has lost us 3 games this season.

    • Btw, not disagreeing with you in regards to clock management. Especially in this day and age with high powered, high scoring spread offenses.

      The team with the ball on offense last usually wins a shootout.

      Why not leave them less time?

      The poster from the previous thread who mentioned running backwards to inside the 20 on 3rd down and taking the safety on 4th down to run clock? So fucking genius. Wish pur coaches couldve come up with that on the fly.

      • I stole that off some random poster on O-live and it was a genius plan. Based on a Chip Kelly move in a NFL game, go figure.

        You would think that coaches would have a little black book with crazy plays mapped out for situations like that. Obviously Cookus has them for special teams, they’ve done all kinds of crazy, borderline illegal shit on ST that has mostly worked because they had thought of it before hand.

        Maybe they should expand Cookus role to Special teams/oh shit play coordinator. He obviously does his homework and looks outside the box.

      • Would have been hilarious. The pitch to Pierce. Who runs back inside the 20, stands around as long as he can, takes a knee…everyone in the stadium in disbelief….

          • I wonder what is the “time left” cut-off to make a play like that feasible? It seems like over one minute is a little too much time. If someone like Pierce took off running for his own end zone, think how long it would take the Wazzu d-line to get down there also. Could you run around crazy on two plays and then run through the end zone for a safety and burn off a minute?

    • There is nothing about Smith’s history and apparent persona to suggest he’s a reckless gambler. As I suggested above, I think Smith has decided NOT to play safe at OSU (like Riley, whose comportment was SCORNED by most contributors to this blog) but instead to try to build an actual identity. The amazing thing is, most here can’t see the type of program Smith is trying to build: brash, domineering, etc. Those who were most critical of 6 win seasons and meaningless bowl games are now wistful about it.

  9. 2
    1

    Same decision as last week and a different outcome. Didn’t like it then or now.

    But I will admit, with a better QB, going for it would be the right call. They got bailed out last week, the throw wasn’t a good one. And this week another bad throw. Both could have been easy completions.

    Not real sure what to expect in the civil war. Does Oregon treat this as a preseason game? Would key players be held out or limited? Can’t let guys get hurt in a meaningless game. They’ll trot out the usual coach speak, we play to win. But I’ll be curious to see if they do.

  10. 4
    2

    Why are some people still arguing that going for it was the right call?
    True, if we convert the pass, game over and we win.That’s the quickest route to ensuring victory. But if we do not convert, WSU is given new life.

    And that is exactly what happened and the Cougs WON THE GAME.

    We had the lead on our side. Timeouts on our side. Clock on our side. Minimizing the risk of losing is the priority at that point.
    Throwing a pass is not only risky because you give them better field position with an incomplete pass, but what happens if WSU intercepts that pass and runs it back down the field? Is it still the right call? That could have happened in this game and came close to happening in the ASU game. Why even make that a possible outcome?

      • Longer field, less time on the clock. Yes, the clock is on your side. As people have pointed out over and over, WSU needed every second remaining and the benefit of referee whistles stopping the clock and shortening the field, to get the W.
        Make the field longer and the time shorter and you are in a better situation.

          • There’s nothing empirical about it; it’s all based on the premise that WSU is going to run the same plays facing a 60 yard goal that they would on an 80 yard field. On the just previous possession, when Roberts took the wrong angle, a single pass play covered almost 50 yards!

      • This game could have been won well before that 4th down decision….JS and crew need to address managing the clock with Luton, its a game long strategy that if done right can maximize Offensive possessions while also reducing the opposing offense’s. We are too deep into the season for the coaches not to understand this, especially against an opponent like WSU – that is my concern.

        • Exactly. Why is Minnesota 10-1? Fleck uses that strategy fanatically. It’s how you cover up your weaknesses and play to your strengths.
          Typically snapping the ball with less than 4 seconds on the clock. It’s a game of keep away.

  11. 1
    1

    I expect another stinker against the Philthy Phil’s , similar to Washington, but Offense will score maybe 17-23 points. Uncle Phil’s money will pass rush Luton into mistakes and/or fetal position – raining cash on Beavs all night!

    $$ 42-21

  12. Hodgins doesn’t make the final 3 for Biketnikoff. Didn’t think he would, but surprised Oklahoma’s receiver Lamb got in over several WRs who have outperformed him in every category.

  13. Jordan Whittley must be in the doghouse. He only played defending Washington State extra points and was standing on the sidelines on the last play of the game instead of jamming up the middle, exactly where WSU ran. Looks like he’s gotten even larger in girth, if you get my drift.

    Fans at WSU were polite and appreciated the Beaver fans who made the trip. Had a great time, but froze my ass off.

  14. OT: “ Willie Taggart spent his entire Florida State tenure —from his hiring on Dec. 5, 2017 to his firing on Nov. 3 of this year — without ever signing a final contract.”

    Now the school will have to figure out how to settle up with the Fortune Cookie Coach. Of course he’ll end up with at least 6-7 figures, and they’ll waste a bunch of $$$ trying to sort it out.

    Shouldn’t someone(s) at FSU lose their job(s) for this?

  15. Adding hyperlinks to 247 accts and twitter accts in the spreadsheet i mentioned earlier.
    Will keep updating it as time goes by so dont be surprised if things move around between viewings. Also, let me know if you encounter any issues with broken/misdirected links, or just general feedback that you think would help enhance the spreadsheet for end users.

    I have a number players not on the list who are also on my radar, but I have no concrete evidence to share about at this time. Would you want those names or should I keep the spreadsheet smaller and more simple like it is?

    • I would love to see those additional names but would understand if you want to keep them under wraps as well. The more info the better as far as I’m concerned. :-)

      Thanks for all you do!

      • yeah, it’s like giving a cheat sheet to 247 so their writers can go ask the questions and then post the info in their lodge so nobody can see it. Not sure i want to help them out in that regard.

        Noticed Nick Session just flipped from Utah State to Oklahoma State today, so doubtful we get a visit from him now

  16. 1
    2

    Just checked the game log: WSU scored TD’s on two long-yardage drives in merely 4 plays each: one for 73 yards the other 58; the latter is the same distance as their final drive, which by the way, was their longest (in terms of plays–10) of any TD scoring drive. The Cougs ability to get first downs on one or two downs and then clocking it only proves that the the number of time-outs they had was irrelevant. Smith made the right call.

    • 2
      1

      Just checked the game log. OSU forced turnovers 4 times (not counting the onside kick) where the drive started with a touchback or deeper. No other turnovers were forced by OSU on drives where WSU received the ball at the 36 or better field position. Longer field = more opportunities to create turnovers or stop WSU.

      Smith made the wrong call and the Beavs lost the game.

      • The 36 yard line you cite as evidence is merely 6 yards from where WSU took over on the final possession. Besides, there may be a correlation between where WSU started a drive that ended in a turnover, but surely you’re not suggesting causation, are you? Smith made the right call. In that situation your best defense is the OSU offense. Once again, the OSU offense let the team down. Which Big Jim Wilson kept calling them out on during the radio broadcast. You are right about one thing, NB, the Beavs did lose the game.

        • Like I said, Longer field = more opportunities to create turnovers or stop WSU.
          Made no sense to shorten the field. And we risked getting picked off with a run back.
          4th and 4 is not a high probability play, given the stakes.

          • I did not see the game so I am not as informed or emotional as those that did see it, but, damn- 4 takeaways and we still gave up 54 points. Sounds like we should lose to me.

  17. 2
    2

    I don’t like this Smith vs Riley stuff. It’s smith vs odds, not Riley. The odds are if you punt you win the game. The identity of being careless is just as bad as Riley’s identity of being a sleepy overly conservative grandpa. Both identities suck for different reasons. I’m on my phone and can’t elaborate right now ..hopefully later. It’s nuanced and depends what’s going on in the game. Both smith calls (asu and wsu) were bad. One worked so it was forgiven. This on failed so it’s not, but some want to because being overly aggressive is in vogue.

    • Seriously, some people seem to be saying the coach either has to be aggressive all the time or conservative all the time, and if you don’t like a poorly timed aggressive call, then you prefer always being conservative and you love Mike Riley. Why can’t there be a combination of well-timed aggressiveness and well-timed conservativenes?

  18. Wannabeav, not sure I’m understanding your point. Are you saying it’s always good to go for it because not doing so is something Riley would do? It’s also something HOF coaches aren’t afraid to do.
    Seem way hung up on making this about Riley.

    If the beavs were at their own 30 they still should have gone for it because a 4 yard pass wins the game? At what arbitrary yard line does it become a bad call to you?

    • I’m not really getting the Riley analogy. He went for two to win the Sun Bowl, that’s fairly high stakes. He went for two for the win in the infancy of the turnaround against the Huskies and failed. He called a crazy fake punt with a left-handed fourth-string QB and Bill Swancutt as the tight end against the Ducks (if I remember correctly) and made the first down. Riley took some risks, now if you want to talk about shitty game plans, that’s another topic!

      • Yeah, Riley would take chances. It’s when he decided that running the ball wasn’t that important that everything went into the crapper.

    • I posted this in the last thread, but I will repeat it here because I think it is pertinent to this question.

      IMHO, the decision comes down to where you are on the field and the chances that you convert (distance to go). In that game on 4th and 4, I think the percentage that you convert is around 1 in 3. If you fail, given how WSU was chewing us up, they are probably going to win it 3 out of 4 times. If you do that math, that’s about 50-50 that you win if you go for it.

      If you punt, is it a better than 50-50 chance that you win? I think it’s a close call, because there is a decent chance that you are only gaining 23 yards net, and even if you pin them back, they have a decent chance.

      Put us back 20 yards or even 10 and I think punting becomes a no-brainer on 4th and 4.

  19. 3
    1

    I get the feeling we won’t hear the “WSU final thoughts” until at least game 1 of next year. : )

    Agree this is not Smith v. Riley, its “strategic calls v. poor calls.” This is a team that really could be sitting at 8 wins right now. 8! A WINNING RECORD. I don’t get “wistful for Riley,” I get wistful for the three left on the table and what they mean for bowl game placement, additional player development, and the recruiting value that kind of improvement would have.

  20. Hmmmm. Defense has given up 4 td’s this half. Our D is gassed and can’t stop anything. Offense has scored 53. Punt and leave it to the defense to win the game? Eff that!!! (Riley would have said “jimminychristmas”). We should go for it.

    My attempt to get in Niner’s head

    • 4
      1

      I think that’s a point that is getting lost in this discussion….the defense gave up 54 points! As much as we want blame a bad 4th down call, what about a couple stops earlier in the game? The D showed some life with the turnovers, but getting stops and forcing WSU to punt a few times would have gone a long ways!

  21. 7
    1

    I trust JS, and I am looking for an explanation beyond stubborn or gambler. I would bet that he has had some in depth conversations with Chris Peterson over the years regarding the mentality of those Boise St teams, and how Petersen accomplished creating that mindset within a program. They had a relentless no fear creative play call, trick play belief that they were going to win. My guess is that what JS is doing right now is preparing the program for what he will successfully execute as the team improves in talent/discipline/execution.

    Luton made a bad throw on play ASU/WSU but the play calling and mindset didn’t change. JS is preparing the team for how to win throught execution and how important it is to be detailed and exact. This explains it in both cases as he said as much during the pre game and postgame pressers.

    He is building a winner through these decisions not merely guessing and gambling at random. My 2 cents

    • 1
      1

      Good take.
      Still, teach that some other time when a bowl game isn’t on the line, and/or when you’re in a bad position. We were in a good position. Punt there you win. I know I can’t prove that, but the way that game was going I think an extra 20 or 30 yards WSU had to travel would have been the difference. Question: Does Bill Bellichick go for it their, even with Tom Brady, under any circumstance? I’ve never seen it, and I’ve watched a ton of Pat/Jets games and have a man-crush on Brady and watch whenever I can. I never see great coaches on any level go for it in that situation with that down and distance. It seemed to me that (a) it worked for him last week so he did it again (b) being aggressive is not penalized by fans or media so it’s a free shot. There are other reasons, but those seem the two that really stick out.

        • I should make an entire post about how US society is geared toward risk. I mean look at credit default swaps, etc…

          Our society rewards risk. I think this is why financial criminals always get light sentences. “They’re risk takers” is a subliminal takeaway. Meanwhile savers get pummeled via inflation.

          IMO this trickles into sports. All the young hot shots are risk takers trying to redefine the game. Why not if your media and fanbase reward it? Even that old guy at College of the Mines was lionized for NEVER punting.

          And for the record, I love smart, calculated risk. I’m a risk taker, but I’m NOT a gambler. Big difference.

          • 3
            1

            So you are sayin JS has gotta get better at knowing when to hold em,
            know when to fold em,
            know when to walk away,
            Know when to run…..???

    • Here’s another scenario, go for broke with a Hail Mary. Loft into the 10 yard area with a real lameduck kind of throw, either it gets caught by our guys or it’s bait for the secondary to intercept at their own 10 to or less….Have Quetereano and Togiai basically box out for the jump ball….similar to Teagan’s TD. Would take that over the play they chose….

  22. Anyone checked the quack fan boards? Curious how they are holding up. Heard on radio today DP getting more realistic about the talent of Herbert. Said he isn’t sure what he is going to get each time he watches him and sometimes he’s not even the best qb on the field. Gotta play better if you are on an elite team.

    • Herbert is so fucking overrated it’s not even funny. I’m not a huge fan of Luton but I’d take Luton over Herbert 10 out of 10 times. Herbert is a product of his good O line. Give any QB 4-5 seconds to throw and he’ll pick a part a good defense. If this dude gets drafted top 5 I guarantee he’s the next Jawalrus Russell. How’s their savior Mariota fairing with the Titans? I’ve heard nothing but crickets from the local “I love my ducks” media since his ass got benched for Ryan Tannehill.

      Mariota was 100 times better than the college QB Herbert is right now. And he sucks with the Titans.

      Akili Smith = fail
      Harrington = fail
      Mariota = fail
      Mastoli = fail
      Herbert = future NFL failure

      Probably missed a few too

      Who’s next in the long line of future NFL QB failures from UO? Dan Fouts is laughing his ass off. Best NFL QB they’ve ever produced.

      Herbert is a product of media hype. He’s above average but nothing more.

  23. Hey Nicebeaver, I see you have Sione Lolohea and Deshawn Lynch as verbals on the spreadsheet. You know something we don’t or just wishful thinking? ;-)

    If Lolohea does commit, do we lose Shippen?

    • Thanks for the 2nd set of eyes. I had added them to the wrong column this morning.
      I don’t think Lolohea’s decision would have much bearing on Shippen, only because they’re in pretty different age groups and wouldnt directly compete for playing time(assuming Lolohea redshirts his first year)
      I think Moore/Lemon/Shippen are the 3 who will be trying to work their way into the rotation next year, while we already have Garcia/Reichner/Sandberg/Rawls/Stover and a few others on the current roster coming back. How did we suddenly go from having only a few DEs to having so many, so quickly?

      We could use one of those scholarships elsewhere, I would think. Unless there are some defections coming this offseason.
      It’s just my opinion that either Lemon or Shippen will start looking for other options.

  24. 10
    1

    I’ve been invited by Angry to elaborate on my thinking, and I am happy to oblige. There were a few comments offered since I last chimed in on this issue in the 2 o’clock hour that I would like to insert at this juncture instead. I really appreciate the critical thinking my “allies” (krol, Texasbeav, Ohiobeav) have offered to inform this discussion, and perhaps inadvertent support by others, like Scotty.

    To address several issues In no particular order: there weren’t “seconds” left in the game, it was over a minute. As stated before, the number of timeouts WSU had at its disposal was irrelevant, as the actual event proved. Get a first down on a play or two, and if the receiver doesn’t go out of bounds, spike it. The TV broadcasters made a big point, before all this played out, that Leach doesn’t husband TO’s for the offense’s need; the point being, WSU’s offense doesn’t need them. It’s that efficient. Also as noted earlier, WSU scored long-distance TD’s twice in FOUR plays! They got TEN plays off in just 1:08! They scored the previous TD with ease.

    Let’s pay attention to Scotty’s “OSU needed to steal a possession” argument in defense of the onside kick. My point, Angry, is that in the situation at hand OSU had to “PRESERVE a possession” because to turn it over to WSU risked a game winning score.

    So, let’s now turn to the question of eccentric risk taking or going against the odds. The best way to re-create a contingent dynamic retrospectively is to offer a few counterfactuals. Let’s suppose WSU eschews the onside, and tries a variation on the theme, to pooch it, the point being OSU has the ball on its side of the 50, let’s say, just to pick a spot, it’s own 35. OSU Gains 6 yards on three plays, same amount of gain in the same number of plays as happened in the event. Clearly the call here is punt and pray to heaven OSU can hold on for dear life. WSU might get that ball, with a decent return, within 5-10 yards of where they did anyway. Smith punts, they still lose.

    Or, let’s say OSU recovers the onside kick at the WSU 45, rather than the 48. Everything else plays out. Is Smith going to punt it away on 4th and 4 at the Coug 39? To ask the question is to answer it. Just to make my thinking explicit, Angry, the point isn’t to take risk without regard to game circumstances or out of some manic impulse, but at that spot on the field, in my view, Smith did the right thing. The odds are, if he converts on 4th down, OSU wins. If he punts, it’s a 50/50 proposition. He may win with that guaranteed turnover we’ve seen discussed in this thread, or in the equally unlikely scenario that somehow the OSU D is going to hold.

    But its ohiobeav who has truly discerned what I have been trying to say in fits and starts for two days over two threads. Smith is, indeed, the anti-Riley who is tying to build a Boise State-like football culture and worldview in Corvallis. Confident, brash, making the surprise call. You yourself, Angry, seemed to get his point. The two point conversion, which changed the whole trajectory of the 4th qtr, or Chokair’s onside, going for it on 4th, are all of a piece with that objective.

    I’ll conclude with this: when Andersen left my favorite candidate was Les Miles. Great coach. He will make Kansas a winner. HIs nickname, The Mad Hatter, of course. We should be so fortunate to have Smith replicate his won/loss record.

    • I get the onside kick and agreed with it…we needed it because we couldn’t stop them and had to get ahead. Good risk/gamble given everything up to that point. The rest of what you wrote seems like justification for an unconventional call (and one with the odds not in his favor). Probabilities favor the punt as did the feel at that point in time. So the only interesting argument is the Beavs have to do this for some irrational reason. You’re bringing those up: culture building, etc. I’d counter and saying punting, winning the game, and going to a bowl would build culture more than being brash. Ideally we have a logical mix of the two where the coach knows where to gamble and when to be conservative.

      It’s an interesting debate. Math doesn’t favor the call. My in-game “feel” for the moment didn’t favor the call (i.e. my heart sank when I saw the offense, and I was yelling “he’s bluffing to get them offsides”), etc. I’m really surprised anyone is trying to justify the call. The fact you bring up Riley makes me think you like this call, at the core, because it’s anti-Riley. I never thought of Riley once during that game and would hope we’re well removed from making calls based on him.

      I like the punt for one reason: it increases the odds of a win.

          • Fair point. But again, if you don’t convert aren’t the odds of going 80+ yards in 68 seconds worse than going 57 yards in 68 seconds? Again, WSU needed every second to go 57 yards AND had to get some help from a horseshit penalty to stop the clock.

            I’m not even a degenerate gambler and see this.

          • This discussion has been interesting. I crunched some in-game numbers and came up with this: ignoring timeouts, time on clock, etc as irrelevant: wazzu scored a td on 50% (~same as turnovers+punts+field goals) of possessions (ignoring the one play possession before half). Osu was 1-3 on first downs before the last one. Chance of failure on the last 4th down 67%, multiplied by 50% success rate for wazzus offense to score game-winning td =34% chance wazzu scores game winner. Odds favor going on 4th because punt = ~50% chance of wazzu td (unless my math is crap, which is entirely possible). Beavs are 56% on 4th down conversions for the season v. P5 too. Smith made the right call, but the play calling was certainly poor that last possession.

          • I just came across my TI-82 graphing calculator from 2001. Wrapping it up and sending it to Jonathan Smith to help him effortlessly make in-game decisions this weekend.
            HoHoHoBeavs

    • Great argument. No need to compare to Riley, Riley can make a team competitive or good even, but not great — like Bill Parcells (?) in his later years in the NFL. We all want JS to be great, and he certainly isn’t THE gambler yet, but his behavior in the last two games is on that trajectory. I’m about 70 to 30 in favor of a punt in that situation, but like I’ve said all along, the coach’s are blind to what really lost them the game — all the little bits of time they left on the clock as they ran plays with 15+ seconds late into the game. Good Stuff!

      • I’d say other than that 4th down call, the 2nd reason we lost the game were drops (on both offense and defense).

        Both defenses were bad and that game had a frantic pace from the start. So then it comes down to execution, and we had too many drops. Dropped int by Dunn was brutal. Hodgins dropped a 1st down on the possession before. Huge huge plays.

        • I’ll add that if the plan is to run the ball and burn WSU’s time outs and then burn clock
          to seal the game, your playcalling should still be imaginative and aggressive. The easy 5 yard 1st down run apparently fooled Lindgren into thinking that the run blocking was something that it hadn’t been all game. Second and third down returned to reality and fourth became desperation.

      • Smith’s fourth down decision in back to back games was completely logical. He’s on the plus side of the 50. He has a D that can give up a lot of points. His O, though intermittent in its efficiency, had been moving the ball. Go for it.

    • Quite late to this conversation; still gradually catching up on everyone’s post game comments about this one play.

      One thing that seems to be missing (unless someone mentioned) in the “going on 4th-4” vs. “punting”…

      Apart from deliberately attempting to draw off sides, what offensive play from the Beavers’ known repertoire do they run.

      Given how this game turned out, I struggle to think of one?

      4th-4, irregardless of talent or ability to execute, is a big challenge for any team.

  25. What’s crazy is I hear everyone complaining about Smith, the clock and 4th down, but hardly a mention of Tibs when the D gave up 54 points and the WSU passing record. Isn’t that the bigger problem?

        • @Angry, I think this is not given enough attention. If you look back at the last few recruiting classes, they were, well bad. On top of that, players leaving or never making it on campus. Even though some of these players have been basically starters since they were very young, they still started out as pretty raw (not wanting to be mean here) players and have developed but still are a ways behind other p5 competition. I’m not saying Tibs doesn’t deserve some blame but take for example the growth in creating turnovers or sacks, there has been growth. We weren’t going to attract a top level defensive coordinator with where the program was. There will be some growing pains via staff and players.

          They have performed better this year against good and bad offenses than they had in the past. I look for next year with some studs coming in and a healthy Gumbs to be a good assessment of Tibs coaching ability.

          • EXACTLY ^^^^^^^^
            and that’s why I remain on the Tibs Bandwagon. I also believe Blue has coached his DB’s to improvement as the season has gone along.

            OT: Anyone else think the Dawgs are having a hard time replacing JS?

        • if given sufficient support by its offense, which has more talent per position than the D, the OSU D has been okay. Not good, certainly far from great, but good enough to win 7 games if the O executes at key junctures.

          • And Scotty is right; the Honks miss Smith but can’t say it out loud. The larger thrust of their post-game commentary is that the Husky bench is dead, no fire, and that assuredly can’t be said about OSU

    • 4
      14

      I blacklisted him from commenting for one day (this deletes his comments in the thread) because he took his normal combative stance in a thread that actually had good discussion. Basically I responded to him and said that article was super flawed, later deleted my comment because I decided I didn’t want to engage with him down the rabbit hole and ruin a thread I’ve been enjoying reading, and he then went on a rant accusing me of being a fraud, yada yada. He needs a timeout. And yes, that article was ridiculously bad.

      • The article actually stated the following:

        “In the Final Minutes

        My rules of thumb apply only before the time remaining becomes a critical consideration. If a game gets to that point, I use a more advanced method for weighing the options, but my recommendations are still based on the data.”

      • I thought that article contributed a lot to the thread if for no other reason it made precisely the point I was making relative to down & distance and field position. According to the NYT formula Smith made the right call.

    • I would never completely rule out the possibility, but I wouldn’t bet on it either. Things to consider. What’s his connection to Oregon State: Does he have family here? Does he have close friends who will be playing for us? Does he have a special place in his heart for water rodents?
      If the answer to all of those questions is “no”, then I say we have zero chance at landing him. For every “yes” answer, I’ll add 10% to our chances. But I don’t know those answers yet.

      • I am happy to see the new commit, Jake, and his dad chiming to these recruits about the great coaches, program, etc. I know this probably doesn’t sway a kid but I like hearing especially from a parent of a commit that they support the coaches and encourage others to join. Smalls was a vocal recruiting and looks like Overman is that next guy.

        TE looks to be a very solid position for years to come. Good thing we have a real TE coach now!

        • Agree, I like the Overman family. They have been pretty involved in the process from the beginning.
          Funny that you mention Smalls, because he was actually a catalyst in getting us Overman, because he transferred. UW was looking attractive to Overman because of the number of TEs they had ahead of Overman on the roster was less than here at OSU, but with Smalls leaving, it helped open a door to more immediate playing time.

  26. 7
    1

    Here’s my take with that admission that I was for going for it.

    By going for it in that situation, you have two chances to win. (1) making the first down or (2) stopping WSU from going 57 yards in 67 seconds. If you punt, you have one chance, (3) stopping WSU from going (say) 80 yards in 60 seconds.

    What’s the probability of (1)? In this game OSU ran 71 plays (non punt or FG). 36 of them went 4 yards or better. So, by this measure the odds would be slightly better than 50/50. The probability of (2) is more difficult to estimate, but WSU had 14 drives, 7 of them ended in TO, punt or FG attempt. A stoppage rate of 50% seems too high. So, lets not specify it yet. Let that probability be Q. So, if OSU goes for it, the probability of victory is
    0.5 + (1-0.5)Q = 0.5(1+Q). In order for punting to be better, the probability of victory given the punt has to be larger than this number. Call that probability P. So

    0.5(1+Q) 0.5(1+Q)/Q

    So, if we assess the probability of stopping after a failed go-for-it at 30%, n > 2.16 Meaning that OSU would have to be more than twice as likely to stop WSU from scoring 80 yards in 60 seconds than 57 yards in 67 seconds. That number gets larger more quickly if you assess the probability to be lower. A Q of 10% would require you to be 5.4 times more likely to stop WSU after the punt. You can find a graph of this function here: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/2qztgomjgq

    As an aside, what this also says is that the better your defense the better the odds if you punt (with the coverse also holding).

    The upshot of all this is that in order for punting in this situation to be the answer, the odds of stopping 80-in-60 have to be significantly better than stopping 57-in-67. Given that this may be WSUs most prolific offense ever against a tired mediocre-at-best OSU defense I find that to be unlikely. Your mileage may vary.

    Other stuff: The clock management on OSUs last possession was fine. Though the ball was snapped with 15 seconds left on the play clock, the game clock was stopped due to WSU timeouts. OSU took the TO with almost no time left of the play clock (the 3rd down play lasted 46 seconds).
    I thought Luton’s throw was generally in the right place, just 6 inches too high. Quitoriano had good matchup. A lower pass would allow the defender to break on the ball through the receiver. The Beavs defense almost acquitted themselves, forcing a 4th and 8. I also thought that last PI call was a bit ticky-tack but so it goes.

      • Actually, it looks like the system changed my post because of an embedded greater/less than sign. What is above doesn’t make any sense. What it is supposed to say is

        0.5(1+Q) less-than nQ
        which leads to

        0.5(1+Q)/Q less-than n

        sorry about the confusion. The following is a test of less than using html: %lt;

    • 2
      2

      “the odds of stopping 80-in-60 have to be significantly better than stopping 57-in-67”

      Exactly! And why it was the wrong decision to go for it!

      You already wrote that 7 of 14 WSU possessions ended in a punt, turnover or FG attempt.

      50%. They needed a TD to win.

      There’s a time to gamble and a time to go conservative. I fail to understand why so many of you fail to see this.

      And furthermore, none of WSU’s TD drives were less than 2:17 according to the box score.

      However, i don’t recall any of them being in hurry up mode. Irregardless, going 57 yards in 68 seconds statistically isn’t as difficult as going 80 or more in less time.

      The odds of winning are on your side.

      JS was wrong and it was against the statistical odds in going for it.

      Facts.

      • the percent of drives that ended in a TD is misleading because when Gordon didn’t turn it over, they scored. The Beav D forced one punt in that game. The criticism of Smith in part relies on the premise of what above I called the “guaranteed turnover.” yes, it could have happened, but in the event, over 58 yards, it didn’t

    • Not sure how you you can say “going 80 yds to score a touchdown” is “one chance”. There are several plays involved in going 80 yds to score a touchdown. Each play is a chance to stop them. So, if each play is a chance to win, then the only question is this: how many plays would it take WSU to go the extra 25 yds had we punted? If it’s greater than 1, then it would have given us more chances than the one failed 4th down plus the plays for WSU to go 57 yds.

      • It’s one chance in the sense that “Stop WSU from scoring” is treated as a single event with some probability, Q. That probability is separate from the probability, P, of the event “OSU gains 4 yards”. The combined probability for victory V = P + (1-P)Q.

    • 4
      1

      Marcodg’s post is why this blog is the best one in college sports commentary. Right up there with the Martin Meyer legal analysis on the Heimlich case

    • When I imagine the “punt”, I suppose it would be squibbed adding possibility that it pinballs off of a WSU player, etc. Of course it opens things up for a good return, but doubt it gets returned passed the 20 yard line anyways. With the emotion of the game running high at that moment thought it played into WSUs hands better when they got the stop….it energized their offense.

    • My thought process is, you have the win in hand and are trying to minimize risk of giving it away.
      If a 4th down and 4 passing play is a 50/50 proposition, then you reset the odds when you get to the next step of the equation.

      If WSU starting their final drive at their 20 yard line is less risky than WSU starting their drive at their own 43 yard line, I’m taking the less risky option.
      My goal is to prevent a WSU touchdown.

      I’m looking at the worst case scenario and work my way backwards. What can I say, being a Beaver fan has me pessimistic.

      • Also consider the risk of passing in general. What if Luton throws low instead of high and the DB jumps the route?
        That’s a pick 6 waiting to happen.

      • The odds are not “reset” until after you know what happens. So when deciding to go for it, the probability of success depends on two things, the probability, P, that you make 4 yards and the probability ‘Q’ that you can keep[ WSU from scoring 57-in-60. That number for victory is V = P + (1-P)Q.

        Also, I intentionally left out all the ancillary stuff that is hard to guage: blocked punt, ball the trickles out at the one, return for a touchdown, OSU fumble or interception, muffed punt, etc.

        • marcodg, glad you are here and glad I had some part in getting you to become involved. Your thoughtfull comments and analysis is far too good to be wasted in the swamp which is the comments section of the big zero.

      • NB: you DON’T have the win in hand if you punt the ball away, as WSU’s subsequent possession proved. You only have a win in hand IF you get the first down. What is so damn hard about this?

        • replace the word “Win” with “Lead” if it helps with the semantics.

          The so damn hard part is explained by Marcodg above.

          “…in order for punting in this situation to be the answer, the odds of stopping 80-in-60 have to be significantly better than stopping 57-in-67. Given that this may be WSUs most prolific offense ever against a tired mediocre-at-best OSU defense I find that to be unlikely. Your mileage may vary.”

          Bottom line, the mileage varies between people in this blog.
          I believe the team has a significantly better chance of stopping WSU in the 80/60 scenario than the 57/67 scenario. Call me crazy. The only evidence I have is Oregon State forcing 4 turnovers already in this game on fields where possessions started at the 35 or longer(including just 2 possessions prior when Speights intercepted). We even stopped a 2 pt conversion attempt just a few plays prior to this, which is on par with preventing a 4th down pass attempt. Further evidence, it took WSU all of 66 seconds to march 57 yards, aided by clock stoppage on a questionable call.
          The more passes WSU is forced to throw in a shorter amount of time, the lower likelihood they find the end zone.

        • Sometimes it’s useful to put real numbers in to get a feeling for how this works. Let’s say, as above, the odds of making 4 yards is 50%. The odds of stopping WSU 57-in-67 is 30%. The odds of stopping WSU 80-in-60 is 50%. I would call a 66% increase in odds significant.
          OK, OSU gets 100 tries going for it. They win outright 50% of the time so they win 50 games outright. Then, they win 30% of the remaining ones for a total of 65 wins.

          Now they get 100 tries punting. They win 50% of those games for a total of 50. Going for it: 65 games. Punting: 50 games.

          Now, I don’t pretend these are actual numbers. This is only an illustration that sometimes things are counter-intuitive. I don’t know what the actual probabilities are (although I do believe the 50% is about right, for this particular game). That’s part of the art of coaching. JS even said in the presser that if it were 4th and 12 he would have punted. At some point you have to take incomplete data and turn it into a binary decision.

          I don’t mind if anyone thinks that punting was the right choice. We also need to remember that this is JS first head coaching gig. He’s probably learning a lot of things along the way.

  27. OT PSA: Now that snow is showing up be smart about how you clean off the roofs. Use a snow rake and take the snow off the eve and the first 2-4 feet above the plate. Do not climb up on the ridge and remove snow from above. Just removing the first 6 ft of perimeter around the structure will remove 30-50% of the snow load and locate it to the best location for truss dynamics.

  28. Onto the civil war

    Lots of things need to go right again to win.
    1. Ducks have to play a bad game. Unforced errors keeps the Beavs in it.
    2. Luton can’t make any mistakes. Running has to dominate.
    3. Ducks pull key guys to avoid injuries.
    4. Defense has to play as well as they did vs UW. And probably better.

    The line seems high but if the ducks get momentum early, it could easily turn into a blowout.

  29. JS says Whittley’s reduced playing time is just related to performance, and other guys have earned reps. Has Whittley’s performance degraded recently, or is Coach just not willing to air dirty laundry?

    • Excellent question and I’m thinking the answer is “Coach not willing…”
      After all, Whittley ( a week or two ago ) was praised here for: 1) showing better energy/conditioning, and 2) appearing to have lost some of the flab.

    • Whitley either has a medical condition is just completely out of shape.

      Can wreak havoc from time to time but is sucking air and asking to come out after a couple plays in a row.

      If he has a robust offseason conditioning program and is game ready week 1 next year he could do a lot of damage. But as of now he is only going to be effective a hand full of plays a quarter.

  30. Hodgins debating whether to declare or not.

    I think he’ll be back. He’ll have a chance to show he can be a top 3 round pick. I think he’d be a late Rd pick or undrafted. The biggest knock on him is deep balls. He hasn’t shown that he can just straight up burn a DB consistently.

    Kind of means his 40 is 4.6 something, maybe higher. Which won’t get you drafted very high. That’s something I think he’d work on in the off-season. Speed work.

    • Hodgins’ debate has several factors, not nearly as simple as punting on 4th, lol.

      He wouldn’t have Luton throwing his way, how important, really, was that talk of “chemistry”?
      He might have another shot at the Biletnikoff Award if he stays.
      He, almost certainly, would be playing in a (better) bowl game.
      And the opportunity for speed work this off season.
      Also, what’s the competition difference in the two years?

    • Wanted to compare Hodgins to a few OSU greats, Hass, and Cooks, and found that Hass is on the 2020 College Hall of Fame Ballot. Pretty cool:

      https://750thegame.com/oregon-state-wr-mike-hass-named-on-2020-college-football-hall-of-fame-ballot/

      Anyhoo, Hass “…won the 2005 Biletnikoff Award given annually to the nation’s top wide receiver. That year he had 90 catches for 1,532 yards and 6 touchdowns ” He was listed at 6’1″ 210.

      Brandin Cooks in 2013: 128(!) catches, 1,730 yards, 13.5 YPC, 13 TDs. Late first round.

      In a much more offensive-friendly era, and with maybe about the same caliber of college QB throwing to him as Hass and Cooks(?), Hodgins so far has 78 catches, 1,086 yards, 13.9 YPC, 13 TDs. Hodgins is listed at 6’4″ 209 lbs.

      Keenan Allen, in 9 games his last year as a Cal Bear, had 61 catches, 737 YDs, about 12 YPC, and 6 TDs. He was 6’2″, 211, went 3rd round.

      I can see Hodgins being underestimated if is 40 time is underwhelming and because of his lack of top end speed. The 40-time always gets more weight than it deserves. And I can see him being drafted “too low” and being extremely productive in the NFL. I don’t think he’s done putting on weight and I think he’ll get faster.

      But I can’t see him going undrafted. He has “it,” which sounds corny, but when a catch is needed, he frequently gets open and makes it. I am curious how well his blocking is esteemed here on this board?

      I think Angry’s comparison is valid, not just on the stats, but on the ability to get open and the reliable productivity. Allen’s had a productive NFL career. An NFL team that gets Hodgins in Round 4 or lower is probably getting a steal. I could see Hodgins going to the NFL and getting more TDs per season than Cooks. Throw out this season (injury) and Cooks has averaged about 6 TDs per year, with a range of 3 – 9, and that’s playing with Brees, Brady, and Goff. In fairness to Cooks, he’s played with some teams that spread the ball around.

      I hope Hodgins stays and gives Gebbia a definite, playmaker target. But would totally understand him going now while healthy.

      • What Allen had was loose hips and swivel…worked his way open by juking. He dominated doing that. Hodgins has that same exact thing. Both lack top end speed, but both have all world agility and hands.

        • Hodgins is basically where Nall was. Great college player but needs to stay one more year to be guaranteed drafted.

          If Hodgins comes out this year, NFL gms will try to get him cheap. This means they’ll like him but spread a lot of negative news about him so he’ll drop. Happens every year to a lot of players.

          • Seems like Hodgins, along with Jefferson, would likely become “the face” of OSU football next season…at least on the offense. Hamilcar on the D if he returns.

            Keenan Allen declared after his Junior year, played 9 games that year.

          • Hamilcar on D if he returns
            I like Hamilcar and hope he returns. That said, there are a number of candidates for “face of the D”, Morris, McCartan, Gumbs, Roberts, Speights. All Soph except Speights. Tibs gonna have a lot to work with!

  31. Can anyone go back over that last drive and see if the Cougs got obvious home cookin from the clock operator? Jim Wilson mentioned it after about 3 plays that something seemed fishy and more time should be off the clock. He mentioned it multiple times on the last drive. In addition, the back to back flags effectively created timeouts for WSU to prepare for the next offensive play without scrambling against a running clock…

  32. 1
    1

    I don’t understand why teams don’t go for 2 if they score a touchdown to go up by 7, particularly when it is mid to late 4th quarter. Too many times I see the team kick the extra point to go up by 8, and the other team marches down the field to score and force overtime.

    Those are risks worth taking, as opposed to going for it on 4th and 4 outside the opponent’s 40 with a statue quarterback.

  33. 1
    1

    Need to get off to good start. If if if Beavs can keep it close into 4th, I think we’ll win. Concerned about ducks scoring early and having small mistakes pile up. Need to score on first possession, get couple TOs and then commit to run. Will require Luton to convert on 3rd and short. It’s a long shot but I have a good feeling. Ducks aren’t that great

    • If there is a game to have Gebbia come in on third and short, this is it. OSU absolutely has to convert on third and short to have a shot.

      • 1
        1

        A real gambling HC would call a QB draw with Luton in the first offensive series! Lets see if JS is ALL IN.

        But, yes having Gebbia in on short yardage seems worth trying. BTW, had to look it up, but Colletto has used his 4 games already. (Gebbia’s been in 3 and has already had a RS).

        • That reminds me of the UCLA game when Luton scored from I think 21 yards out to ice the game. Oh what a call that would have been fairly recently in a questionable 4th down and 4. I can’t remember the opponent but that’s neither here nor there. Throw the kitchen sink at em Smith! (But not a silly double reverse that goes way in reverse)

    • 1
      2

      Committing to the run against an above average defense is a recipe for 3 and out. This O line is mediocre at run blocking, they get run yards by passing to set up the run.

    • In review, and seeing some plays I missed Saturday:

      A number of WSU’s pass plays are merely long hand-offs. Not news here, but…

      OSU should add a shovel pass to its repertoire, I’ve wondered for years why we haven’t seen it. Pierce seems like an effective option in that play with his acceleration;

      OSU got 4 TO’s, plus dropped a sure INT. Gordon was just off enough on several throws. Not a high percentage, but with the volume of throws, it can be meaningful. All the more reason to punt on fourth and give WSU a longer field;

      Good, game-long effort by the Beavers. With questionable clock management, and Hamilcar in a cast, they lost by one on the road with 2 seconds left…

      I haven’t watched the Ducks. I perceive they’re overrated, and I think Cristobal is at least a 2 game handicap per year (they’ve lost 2 already). He has said he wants to build from the lines and win in the fourth quarter. It sounds like they have the D line talent and quickness to over-match the Beavers – sounds like a time for draws, screens, fly sweeps, and maybe a timely shovel pass? Gebbia should definitely be getting some practice reps as a strategic option on short yardage plays or even being on the field with Luton. Its a one game season for the Beavers now, they’re are no “trick plays.”

      If Hamilcar can’t be himself, I’m having trouble seeing a difference maker on D and I’m seeing trouble stopping the UO run game. If Cristobal just runs it down OSU’s throats with Verdell (sp?) it should be over.

      • On the radio today I heard a report that Verdel, Redd and one other player(Dye?) came up gimpy during the ASU game, but oregon expects them to be at full strength this week. Injury reports are never totally reliable, but if Verdel is hampered at all, they need to make sure he feels every tackle. Same with Redd. And the week prior, oregon lost one of their better receivers, Pittman.

        From people I talked to who watched their game last week, the center exchange was their main issue on offense. I guess they had their backup C in the game and his snaps were often short or too high, which threw off Herbert’s rhythm. Haven’t heard anything if their center is still expected to be the same guy this week.

      • “If Cristobal just runs it down OSU’s throats with Verdell (sp?) it should be over.”

        I watched uo vs Ariz St and I was thinking the same thing about that game, they had a huge advantage with their O-line vs ASUs front 7. But, they never figured it out and kept calling pointless trick plays and long passes that didn’t work. Eventually ASU hit some big plays of their own, got the lead, and got confidence.

        I agree that they could run it down our throats, but I also think their coaches might be too stupid to actually do that.

        • I happen to agree. If Oregon just runs the ball, they win easy. Cristobal has not proven to be that smart. Much like Taggart, good recruiter, terrible coach. So far he’s surrounded himself with pretty good assistants. But he also was basically given the keys to a Ferrari. Time will tell but I don’t think this is a guy that will win them that elusive “natty”.

          He’s a rah rah guy that says all the right things but his actions say otherwise. In other words, a fraud. Like Taggart. Taggart’s ego kept him from being mostly successful. Nick Saban would out coach Cristobal and leave him crying in a corner. Like I stated, so far their recruiting and his assistants are covering for his shortcomings.

      • 2
        1

        Agree, I love the shovel pass. I seem to remember years back I think it was Hawaii worked over a hand jive defense pretty good with the shovel pass.

  34. 6
    1

    Not that I think it will happen. But it is a rivalry game. Stranger things have happened. The first quarter will tell if UO comes out flat. Win and the Beavs can do no worse than El Paso.

    “Oregon State’s conference record, should it beat the Ducks, is a major asset. The Pac-12’s bowl pecking order has strict rules based on conference record. The Beavers would be 5-4. Only Oregon, Utah and USC can finish with a better conference record than OSU.

    If the Utah-Oregon Pac-12 title game winner goes to the Rose Bowl, the Alamo, Holiday and Redbox bowls – picking in that order – must take the best available conference record within one loss. It’s possible that once Utah, Oregon and USC are gone, the Redbox could take a 4-5 team over OSU.

    But the next tier – Sun, Vegas and Cheez-It bowls – must take the best available conference record, with no option for a team with one additional loss. That means the worst-case scenario for the Beavers – providing they are bowl-eligible – is the Sun Bowl on Dec. 31 in El Paso.

    If Utah ends up in the College Football Playoff, Oregon in the Rose Bowl and USC in the Alamo, the Oregon State is in play for the Holiday and Redbox bowls. But those bowls can also choose a Pac-12 team with a 4-5 conference record. There may be several, depending on the outcome of this weekend’s games.

    But even in this instance, OSU cannot fall below the Sun Bowl.”

    The shit rag in Portland can eat my ass. No link for you!

  35. Random thoughts from after watching the replay.

    I know we benefited from a questionable PI against ASU but the back judge was out to get us in the last 4 minutes, what I’d call 2 questionable PI calls and a targeting call that was overturned.

    I still don’t like the call to go for it on 4th down, but I after watching the replay, my biggest complaint was not bring more pressure (blitzes) the last 2 drives. We were getting picked apart all game long, what was the worse thing that could happen if you brought 5-6? Score a TD, they were doing that already.

    The dropped 4th down passes earlier in the game were absolute game killers. Both Lindsey and Hodges tried to body catch the ball and it bounced off their chest. Hodges was after the fumble with a chance to go up 14-0 or 10-0, and Lindsey’s drop was early in the second half and would have kept the momentum we gained by scoring the last 10 points of the half. We’ve been hard on Luton for not making pressure throws when it counts and both of those balls were on target.

    Also the two drop INTs by Wilson and Grant(???) in the first half were huge. I think we are talking blow out if we don’t drop those 4 very catchable balls.

    • 2
      1

      I’m not allowing any thoughts of that into my head. I’ve been conditioned to expect disappointment from both of my alma maters in football.
      Just have to beat the f’g badgers and keep the Axe.
      That would be my dream matchup, however. Love to be able channel my duck hate productivity. Goph’s did beat them in the last bowl matchup.

  36. 2
    1

    Watching the game again it seemed like they were getting away with a lot of holds on offense. The final drive it looked like Garcia beat his man so the guy dove at his legs which should of been a penalty Garcia was still grabbing Gordon and he threw it right into Robert’s hands but dropped the int.

    • There was a play where it looked like the offensive lineman had his arm crooked around the neck of the Beav rusher. I didn’t DVR the game, so I can’t go back and find it. I thought that would be considered holding?

  37. Depending how shitty the weather is here on Saturday, I may try to get my Retro Benny flag on Gameday. Prolly should give the Wazzu flag guy a snuggie..

  38. 2
    1

    Jack Anderson, on JBS the other day talking about the baseball visit to the White House.
    Mentioned Trump asked who was the best pitcher, everyone responded “Luke Heimlich”! Luke opined that he wasn’t that fast but got by on control, Trump gave an example or two of MLB pitchers who were control over speed as well.

    • 4
      1

      And what the hell is wrong with Scott Frost? Is he on ‘roids? He’s storming around after the game like his team got screwed out of something? They got “screwed” because they couldn’t cover a pass play and Iowa’s kicker was clutch! I also noticed he gets that super-red nose like Anderpants?

    • #TPB call-in show caller on Scott Frost: “He’s a worse clock manager than Mike Riley, and I didn’t think that’s possible!”

      LMAO!

    • When was the last time the Huskers missed the post-season for 3 years in a row?

      The callers on this radio show are great lol. Turning on Frost real fast. Nebby fans remain a special breed of delusional.

      • 1
        1

        Well, who called that stupid QB draw (or whatever the hell it was) and Martinez ran out of bounds with 40 some seconds on the clock? Frosty is probably bad, but it doesn’t help to have stupid players also!

        I also picked up on a Nebby bias from the B10 announcers. Sort of like the Quacks with P-12 Network. They make them sound good even when their not. Matt Millen’s parting comment was “Nebraska is closer than you think”. Closer to what? Beating Ohio State?

      • closing caller on Big Red Overreaction probably got it right: Nebraska fan is slowly getting used to the new normal. mediocre football.

    • They’ll could still get invited to a bowl at 5 wins. Happened a couple years back with Riley, when there’s werent enough 6 win teams nationally, so Nebraska got an invite because they travel well.

      • 1
        1

        It actually had to do with team GPA or some wacky NCAA academic calculation. San Jose St was the other team that received a bid at 5-7. How are the Beav’s academics?

        Edit- it’s officially called the Academic Progress Rate (APR). I haven’t looked up what it actually means.

    • thanks for the link, scotty. it’s a blast. too bad UW is going to win; that would have made for a nice double header, referring to the Husky Honks. I still may listen in a bit for the hell of it. Last week was pure Gold. but then, who is surprised that UW won? Clearly the better team. They put a LOT more pressure on Gordon than the Beavs. Lesson learned

  39. the Honks can be obnoxious when UW wins but Hugh Millen had some interesting insights on why UW consistently plays WSU far better than every other team in the conference: good “hand-offs” by the UW DB’s on the deep Coug crossing routes. Make WSU check down to the RB in the flat or the guy who “sits” on the short curl-in and then make sure you tackle well and hard. UW only rushes three down linemen too, which is probably why Smith sticks with it. UW gets more pressure, however.

  40. #TPB natives are restless:

    “I don’t want to call him a bad coach but he is definitely being overpaid.”

    “I’ll call him bad for you.”

    “Painful to say, but I think we were better in almost all aspects with Riley. Man that hurts to write.”

    Golly!

  41. It’s been a good 25ish years since I went to Civil War in Autzen. I guess I’ll go tomorrow. Tickets are from fancy season tix duck fans, so replacing bad guys with good guys is positive, yeah?

  42. Pat Forde
    ?
    @ByPatForde
    Iowa 27, Nebraska 24. F. Huskers 5-7, should get them Top 20 at least, maybe Top 15, in preseason 2020 polls.

    Pat gets it.

  43. Is there a way to watch the civil war on an iPhone? Still getting setup in the new place so no tv or internet yet.
    Otherwise I might miss the game.

  44. Scanning the media, Cristobal is saying all the right things. Smith saying preparation is the key, not getting high on emotion.

    I don’t like that Choukair will likely be kicking short, returnable kicks.

    I think there needs to be a defined role for Gebbia. Colleta has been the “practice player of the week,” and there’s times the role he played would be handy. As a more mobile option, Gebbia should have a situational role today dependent on down/distance, but I’m expecting only Luton to get snaps.

    After about the third series we should be able to see if the OSU lines are going to play hard and prevail at all. If not, then the team will need to get turnovers to establish momentum changes.

    Go Beavers!

    • Valid points. Choukair’s tendency to kick short has been noticeable and could really hurt today.
      I don’t doubt the OSU lines will play hard, but prevailing could be another story.

      O-line could be helped if Luton is under center a lot of the time and if Lindgren decides to go with two TE’s. Other than that, quick developing plays to get the ball out of Luton’s hands. There should be no shortage of open receivers with Bradford playing to draw attention from Hodgins along with Noah’s new found reliability. The play of the uck DB’s bears watching, they were embarrassed last week and may be overly aggressive today, double moves and misdirection by the Beavs could really burn ’em. Never count out the impact possible from AP and JJ.

      D-line will need help from a creative blitz package, Herbert folds under pressure. I expect a good game from Aydon and, maybe, the Swedish kid. Spotlight, though, is on guys like Morris, Roberts, Sharp and Speights. Big question is Hamilcar Rashed Jr, I fear he’ll be too hampered by the hand. Hope I’m proven wrong.

      Barring injury, I doubt we see Gebbia. I was serious the other day in suggesting a QB draw early. Not on 3rd or 4th with two yds needed, but on 2nd or 3rd with 4-5 yds to go. Give the uck D something to think about for the rest of the game.

      Emotion should wear off during the 1st qtr, after that it’s simple: Block, Tackle, Hang onto the ball, avoid penalties, and CONTROL THE CLOCK.
      Beavs have the advantage in coaching (read: halftime adjustments and use of TO’s). Ucks, on paper, have the advantage everywhere else.

      Beavs 38, nikegon 31

      • Is Sharp playing at DE today? Speights will need to come up big again. Dunn will get his P-I(s), will Morris, Grant make difference-making plays?

      • I was looking at defense stats other day: Roberts & Speights contributed a lot this season, esp. for first year (being here) — in addition to Hamilcar.

  45. PHIL STEELE REPORT (WEEK 13):
    #36 Oregon State at #15 Oregon
    123rd meeting in the “Civil War” rivalry. The Ducks have won 10 of the past 11 games (8-4 ATS).The home team is 16-6, but last year the Ducks went on the road & dominated OSU in a 55-15 (-18) win (510-336) despite QB Herbert being injured 2Q. UO led 55-9 and OSU went 77/9 for a TD w/:16 left. I said that Oregon St was at least 14 points better than their squad of last year and they have even exceeded my expectations. OSU has upset UCLA, California, Arizona and Arizona St and are 5-6. Last week they led Wash St 53-42 but gave up 2 TD’s in the last 2:10 including one with :02 left (ouch) . OSU QB Jake Luton has hit 62% but takes care of the ball well with a 28-3 ratio. They got RB Jermar Jefferson back a few weeks ago and he and Artavis Pierce have combined for 1453 rush (5.5). WR Isaiah Hodgins is a Biletnikoff semi-finalist with 1,086 (13.9) and OLB Hamilcar Rashed is a force on defense (14 sks, #2 FBS). OSU is -62 ypg in P12 play and vs UW had just 6 FD and 119 yds. Oregon has the Pac-12 title game on deck but is in bubble burst mode as their Playoff hopes ended in the desert with a 31-28 loss at Arizona St. Oregon is holding P12 foes to 71 ypg below their season avg. Oregon has one of the nation’s top offensive lines and QB Justin Herbert is hitting 68% with a 30-5 ratio.
    FORECAST: OREGON 38 OREGON STATE 21

    POSITION BY POSITION EDGES:

    WHEN OREGON STATE HAS THE BALL
    Oregon State QB/WR vs Oregon DB’s: ORE +2.06
    Oregon State RB’s vs Oregon LB’s: ORE +1.49
    Oregon State OL vs Oregon DL: ORE +1.01

    WHEN OREGON HAS THE BALL:
    Oregon QB/WR vs Oregon State DB’s: ORE +0.13
    Oregon RB’s vs Oregon State LB’s: ORE +0.72
    Oregon OL vs Oregon State DL: ORE +0.06

    MISCELLANEOUS:
    Special Teams: ORE +2.65
    Kicking: ORE +0.40
    Coaching: ORE +0.80

    POSITIONAL EDGE AWARDED TO: ORE +9.31

    Team Stats (ORST-ORE)
    Projected Rushing: 104-206
    Projected Passing: 190-321
    Projected Yardage Total: 295-527
    Projected Final Score: 19-44
    Experience Rankings: 7-1
    Team Schedule Strength: 36-42

    Las Vegas Line: Oregon by 19.5
    Las Vegas Total: 65.5 Points
    +/- Ratings: Oregon by 18.5
    Game Grade: Oregon by 22.5
    Computer Yards: Oregon 527-295
    Computer Points: Oregon 44-19

  46. It’s pretty damn cold our. ducks will probably have the finest in sideline warming technology on display, as well as their portable bathroom with warm water bidet attachment.

LEAVE A REPLY

Please enter your comment!
Please enter your name here